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North/South Differences in Italian IQ: Is Richard Lynn Right?

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JP Rushton

Richard Lynn

L:inda Gottfredson

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2300 words

Richard Lynn has stated that there are differences in Northern and Southern Italian IQ scores. Is he correct?

Lynn claims Italian IQ is 100 in the North and 90 in the South, with the lowest being IQ 89 in the Southern most part of Sicily.

Richard Lynn is of course, extremely controversial in his research areas of interest, mainly with his views on IQ and how it relates to the wealth of nations.

In his paper which talks about the North/South differences in IQ which predict differences in education, infant mortality, stature, and literacy.

Lynn’s methods were to take samples of the Program for International Student Assesment (PISA) which administers tests gauging the abilities of students in math, reading comprehension and science understanding. IQs were calculated by averaging science understanding, reading comprehension and mathematical ability, which the averages are expressed in SD unit deviations from the British PISA mean (n=502, SD 99). Figures are then converted to conventional IQs by multiplying them by 15. So the regional Italian IQs are expressed in comparison to the British IQ and SD (100 and 15 respectively).

His 10 data points are as follows:

First, the IQ in the northern regions of Italy measured by the PISA data is approximately 100 and therefore about the same as in Britain and other countries of northern and central Europe given in Lynn and Vanhanen (2002, 2006). This confirms the results of the standardization of the Colored Progressive Matrices in northern Italy reported by Prunetti (1985) and shows that IQs measured by the PISA data and by the Colored Progressive Matrices data are consistent. Regional IQs in Italy decline steadily through the central regions and into the south and reach a low of 89 in the most southerly region of Sicily. The first hypothesis of this study that there may be a north–south gradient of IQs in Italy is supported and quantified by the correlation of 0.963 between regional IQs and latitude.

First, the PISA data from 2013 shows Southern Italians scoring higher, and Northern Italians scoring around the same. Is that an increase in intelligence that happened in only 3 years? Did the genetics of Southern Italy change in 3 years? No.

Italian IQ

The table above shows the changes in PISA scores for Southern Italy in only 3 years for all 3 subjects tested in PISA. Southern Italy increased by 26 points in reading, and Southern Italy and islands increased by 30 points. For math, 25 for the South and 34 for South and the islands. For science, 18 for the South and 22 for the South and the islands. The presence of non-native students may also be a factor in these score differences. You can see the differences from 3 years, and how even in 3 years, there was a slight decrease in scores in Northern Italy. Migrants, after coming in from the South of the country, then continue to go into the Northern part of the country. This could also explain a huge part of the differences, seeing as they may be counted as Italian citizens, yet aren’t native to the country.

ItalianIQ

The above table shows mean PISA scores for 2006 and 2009, showing a huge increase in scores from Southern Italy, and hardly any increase in Northern Italy. Any genetic changes in 3 years to show that big of an increase?

Source: Problems in deriving Italian regional differences in intelligence from 2009 PISA data

Two, the second hypothesis of this study is that the north–south gradient of IQs in Italy may explain much of the difference in economic development between the north and south of Italy

Wrong again. Southern Italy has a huge underground economy, that isn’t noted on the books. The GDP in Southern Italy is far from accurate and employment figures do not match reality.

These raw figures require a closer look, because one economist’s analysis of Calabria found low pay, high unemployment, and a very high level of consumer spending. In 1994, the government insurance agency placed the number of business enterprises in Calabria at 23,758, while Istat, carrying out the 1996 census, found about 90,000 businesses in the same region.The economist Domenico Marino concluded, on the basis of 4,000 interviews in Calabria, that 75 percent of the Calabrian work force would refuse a fairly low-paying job, despite a very high official level of unemployment. In Calabria, with its dire employment figures, 84 percent of the families own their own home. What such anomalies must mean is that real income in Calabria is far higher than what is “on the books.” Many among the vast numbers of officially unemployed are, in fact, partly or fully employed. They are earning no social benefits, but they are earning the daily lire that keep their families afloat.

This massive sector skews all the statistics. It means that the GDP for the Italian South (and for Italy as a whole) is far from accurate. And the unemployment figures do not reflect reality.

LOOKING TO 2007: ITALY TIMES TWO

Three, the third hypothesis we set out to examine is that regional IQ differences in Italy are also manifest in variables that can be regarded as correlates or effects of IQs, including stature, infant mortality, literacy, and years of education

When historical data on those variables are  used, a different picture emerges. Correlations are insignificant and in the case of infant mortality, do not the supposed link of regional differences in intelligence and socioeconomic development.

Four, per capita incomes are also highly negatively correlated with rates of infant mortality in 1954–57 (r= −0.652), and 1999–2002 (r=−0.823).

When the years 1911, 1891 and 1871 are averaged in, there is no difference.

Lynn didn’t consider the data from the 1860s to average it in with the rest of his data.

Five, the ability of populations with high IQs to give their children better nutrition makes them healthier, more resistant to disease and reduces the risk of mortality, and also improves their children’s stature

Right. But there is no mortality difference, as seen above.

Five, the ability of populations with high IQs to give their children better nutrition makes them healthier, more resistant to disease and reduces the risk of mortality, and also improves their children’s stature

There is a 1.7-inch difference between Northern and Southern Italian height. Which is explained by differences in nutrition between the regions, with the South having a more grain-based diet. Those effects are explained by a grain-based diet, and those Italians from America (which a huge majority are from the South of the country), actually show better educational attainment as well as more monetary success than their Northern counterparts.

Six, regional IQs in 2006 are highly correlated with the years of education of adults in 1951 (r=0.929), 1971 (r=0.871) and 2001 (r=0.886)


At the regional level, average IQs and current per capita GDP are highly related: for the year 2012, the correlation is 0.86. The link between IQ and regional development is, instead, much weaker when data for the years 1871, 1891 and 1911 are considered. Regional IQs and infant mortality rates in 1863–66 are positively correlated, contrarily to that which would be expected based on Lynn’s assumptions;

Two Italies? Genes, intelligence and the Italian North–South economic divide

This is explained simply. When Italy became unified in 1861, there were literacy differences in the country. 87 percent of the Southern population was illiterate in comparison to 67 percent of the Northern population.

The likely explanation for this high correlation is that the percentages of the population that were literate in 1880 was a function of IQs and therefore that the regional differences in IQs were present in 1880 and have been stable over the period 1880 to 2006.

Literacy and average years of schooling are better predictors of income levels than regional IQs.

ITALYIIQ

The above table shows this.

Eight, it is an interesting question whether the differences in Italian regional IQs were present in earlier historical periods. Some useful data bearing on this question have been assembled by Murray (2003, pp. 303–5) who has compiled the numbers of “significant figures” (i.e. those who have made significant contributions to science, literature, music and art) and their places of birth for the whole of Europe from the year 1400 to 1950. His figures for the north, center and south of Italy are shown in Table 3.

MURRAY2003

Pretty damning right? Wrong.

More than half of the country is put into the ‘North’ section of what he is talking about, and how he did the dividing, it looks like this.

Lynn-Italy

Murray also said that achievement happened in a few places in Italy, with Southern Italy being one of the many areas in Europe with ‘low achievement’, which includes a big part of Northern Italy as well. The achievements in Italy were mainly found in Tuscany, which the literacy rate wasn’t too high in 1880. Again, refuting Lynn on his thesis.

Nine, Putnam (1993, p. 159) and Tabellini (2007) have proposed that “civic trust” is a determinant of regional differences in economic development in Italy and in western Europe.

There are hardly any regional differences in economic development, as seen above.

A possible explanation for the northern regions having had higher IQs than the southern regions at least from 1880 and possibly from 1400 to 1600 is that the populations of the north and south are genetically different and these genetic differences are related to differences in intelligence.

Not at all. I touched on this in my Refuting Afrocentrism: Are Italians Black? article.

They write of the population genetics of Italy that “northern Italy shows similarities with countries of central Europe, whereas central and southern Italy are more similar to Greece and other Mediterranean countries.

See above. They are genetically the same:

Italian clusters

Comparison with Germany and Italy, Germans are spread out farther on the graph than are Italians, are there huge genetic differences with Germans as well?

They write of the population genetics of Italy that “northern Italy shows similarities with countries of central Europe, whereas central and southern Italy are more similar to Greece and other Mediterranean countries. This corresponds to the well-known differences in physical type (especially pigmentation and size) between the northern and north-central Italians on the one side and southern Italians on the other”.

Pigmentation is explained by getting the same UV rays as Northern Africa:

UV rays

Size differences explained by slight differences in nutrition.

Subsequent studies have confirmed the genetic impact of immigration from the Near East and North Africa into southern Italy. For instance, the Taql, p1 2f2-8-kb allele has a high frequency in the Near East and North Africa (Morocco, 81.8; Lebanon, 43.7; Tunisia, 34.1). The allele is also present but at a lower frequency (26.4) in southern Italy, including Sicily.

Using a single, or small number of loci will lead to you finding the same loci in different populations? Who knew!!

The diffusion of genes from the Near East and North Africa may explain why the populations of southern Italy have IQs in the range of 89–92, intermediate between those of northern Italy and central and northern Europe (about 100) and those of the Near East and North Africa (in the range of 80–84) (these IQs are given in Lynn, 2006). This also explains the north–south gradient of IQ in Italy in which the regional IQs do not show a clear dichotomy between north and south but rather a gradient in which IQs decline steadily with more southerly latitude.

Nope. I’ve covered this in my ‘Black Italians’ article:

Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%).This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans. (Plaza et al. 2003; Romano et al. 2003)

Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians’ even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere, but a single sub-Saharan African E(xE3b) sequence was found in the first study’s sample of 416 (0.2%), and six were observed in the second study’s sample of 746 (0.8%). The total is therefore a minuscule 0.6%, which decreases to 0.4% if only Southern Italians are considered and 0% if only Sicilians are considered.Again, these are normal levels of admixture for European populations (e.g. Austrians were found to have 0.8% E(xE3b) by Brion et al. 2004). (Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2004)

An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a “line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon,” which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.” (Simoni et al. 1999)

One of the most important citations is the Simoni et al. 1999 cite. Which says that gene flow across the sea was more the exception than the rule. Those 3 studies above refute any ‘racial differences’ between Northern and Southern Italians.

There are problems deriving Italian IQ from PISA test scores. You cannot take PISA data and infer a group’s IQ from it!! Moreover, on purer measures of intelligence, such as Raven’s Progressive Matrices, there is no significant difference between North and South children. These are differences in achievement, not intelligence. None of the studies cited by Lynn were aimed at comparing Italian IQ across regions and none of them used the same age groups!! This is why his data on Italian IQ is wrong.

To conclude, we don’t know the true IQs of all of the regions of Italy. Lynn used faulty measures to make his theory (which doesn’t need fluff) of north/south disparities in IQ more palatable. He’s been refuted multiple times on this matter. I may do another in the future.

Italianthro source: Refuting Richard Lynn’s IQ Study

Italianthro source: Italian vs German Clustering

Italianthro source: Italians

Italianthro source: Sicilians

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73 Comments

  1. CM says:

    With the recent death of Antonin Scalia it has got me thinking again why Italian-Americans have incomes that are higher than the average for white Americans when something like 85% of Italian-Americans originally come from Sicily and other parts of southern Italy. If what a lot of HBD bloggers write about that region’s IQ are to be believed then Italian-Americans should really be no different than the Mexicans, yet they have higher than average incomes and are prominent in many professions.

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    • racerealist says:

      Exactly. The educational attainment of Southern Italians in America is better than that of the North, iirc. As I noted, they have a diet high in grains. I’m 75 percent Calabrese. I know that Calabrese people eat alot of grains. But with better nutrition in America, the average height is slightly taller than in Southern Italy.

      A big majority of Italian immigrants are from the South of the country, left due to poverty. A few generations later and Italian Americans are one of the biggest ethnic groups in America, as well as having high monetary attainment.

      (I know, anecdote) my family family in America has great jobs. All law enforcement or lawyers. There are around 33 million people in Europe at risk or having malnutrition. When those individuals come to America, they get an IQ boost due to better nutrition, which shows in educational attainment, monetary success and intelligence.

      Lynn’s explanation about the low IQ of Southern Italy being due to North African and sub Saharan African ancestry is unfounded as the amount of non-European ancestry is actually below average for that of Europe (.8 percent of Austrian DNA is negroid, 1.2 percent of German DNA is negroid, 1.8 percent of Polish DNA is Asian), did the small amount of admixture have deleterious effects on their IQs? No way.

      So we can see from some observation on other average IQs as well as admixture, that the small amount of non-European admixture doesn’t mean anything in regards to what Lynn was saying about the reason for low IQ.

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    • Rex says:

      Italian-Americans are on the mid-lower end in terms of annual income when compared to other European-American groups. Even then, how much of it can be attributed to the restaurant, deli and food business where other white ethnic groups have virtually little to no representation whatsoever? For every Scalia, you have a slew of whack jobs like Nancy Pelosi, Mario Cuomo, Bill De Blasio, etc. The fact that we haven’t had a president with a shred of ancestry from the Italian peninsula says a lot.

      The truth is that Southern Italy is a lot like India. In the past, most Neapolitans and Sicilians who emigrated abroad were the more intelligent and ambitious type. They had the desire to go and adopt a new way of life (not the agricultural ways they once knew) and make money in hopes of returning one day. The same is true for many Indians, who seem to become spelling bee champions, doctors and lawyers overnight in America. Meanwhile in India, there is mind blowing corruption, low IQ, poverty and incompetence. The same is true for south of Rome, which today has the highest rate of child poverty in Europe, is at risk of being deserted by people and industry, is rampant with crime and corruption and low entrepreneurial spirit. On top of it all, it’s a ghost town for tourism.

      You say individuals like Pauly D and others don’t represent true southerners, but as someone who lives in New Jersey, I can confidently say this guido/mafia culture is just as common in the Italian-American community as gangsta rap is in the African-American community. Those shows and characters are the direct manifestation of it.

      It’s well known that the people south of Rome are largely of southern Balkan (Albanian, Greek) and Levantine origin, so it only makes sense that their IQ’s are similar (low 90’s). Germans may place wider apart from one another, but they are still both of a certain stock known for higher IQ, unlike eastern Meds.

      What should be focused on and brought to the attention is the continual suffering of those in the south and the truth about how they became part of Italy (colonization, genocide and ethnic cleansing) http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/9511-cultural-recuperation-and-the-case-of-southern-italy

      Start video @ 12:15 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h7BkvzcuQpo

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    • RaceRealist says:

      Italian-Americans are on the mid-lower end in terms of annual income when compared to other European-American groups.

      Wrong.

      Median Income: $61,300/year (in 1999)
      [National Median Income: $50,000/year]

      https://www.osia.org/documents/IA_Profile.pdf

      For every Scalia, you have a slew of whack jobs like Nancy Pelosi, Mario Cuomo, Bill De Blasio, etc. The fact that we haven’t had a president with a shred of ancestry from the Italian peninsula says a lot.

      Politicians aren’t a representative sample of the population.

      What does a President not having any ancestry to Italy have to do with anything?

      The truth is that Southern Italy is a lot like India. In the past, most Neapolitans and Sicilians who emigrated abroad were the more intelligent and ambitious type. They had the desire to go and adopt a new way of life (not the agricultural ways they once knew) and make money in hopes of returning one day.

      Southern Italy is like that due to bad nutrition. When they come to America, they then have better nutrition. Get an IQ boost and height boost, and a new way of life they didn’t have in Southern Italy.

      The same is true for south of Rome, which today has the highest rate of child poverty in Europe, is at risk of being deserted by people and industry, is rampant with crime and corruption and low entrepreneurial spirit. On top of it all, it’s a ghost town for tourism.

      Low entrepreneurial spirit?

      http://web.archive.org/web/20041025083527/http://www.csis.org/europe/pubs/Italy2007.pdf

      Romania, Hungary, and Latvia all have higher rates of child poverty than Italy.

      https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/rc10_eng.pdf

      There is plenty of tourism to Southern Italy.

      You say individuals like Pauly D and others don’t represent true southerners, but as someone who lives in New Jersey, I can confidently say this guido/mafia culture is just as common in the Italian-American community as gangsta rap is in the African-American community. Those shows and characters are the direct manifestation of it.

      I live in New Jersey as well. All of the Italians I know are respectable. They all have good kids who go to good universities and end up getting great jobs. My family is full of government workers. My family is from Calabria and Naples. Just because a few clowns got put on a show and they called it the Jersey Shore, doesn’t mean that that is a good representation of New Jersey Italians or even New Jersey as a whole.

      Show me Italians committing crime on the same level as blacks.

      It’s well known that the people south of Rome are largely of southern Balkan (Albanian, Greek) and Levantine origin, so it only makes sense that their IQ’s are similar (low 90’s). Germans may place wider apart from one another, but they are still both of a certain stock known for higher IQ, unlike eastern Meds.

      That doesn’t mean there are any racial differences. There are hardly any phenotypic differences between the North and South. Any differences are due to UV rays which affect skin color slightly as well as physical appearance. Germans place wider apart on a PCA as I have noted; are they two different races and have two differing IQ distributions? No.

      The Levantine comes from when the Jews migrated from the Levant to Rome thousands of years ago and mated with beautiful Roman women.

      https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/01/29/southern-italians-and-ashkenazi-jews-what-is-the-connection/

      Lynn cherry-picked data to fit his idea. He’s been refuted on Southern Italian IQ. I may make another post like this soon, actually.

      As I said there is hardly any phenotypic difference between North and South Italians.

      Any slight physical differences are due to climate.

      What should be focused on and brought to the attention is the continual suffering of those in the south and the truth about how they became part of Italy (colonization, genocide and ethnic cleansing)

      What ‘ethnic cleansing’. They’re the same people. Genetic distances are minute between the North and South. I’ve shown with the composites that there are hardly any noticeable physical differences between the two. It’s all embellishment based on political factors.

      I agree this needs to be put out, and that’s part of the reason why there is a political climate like that in Italy. But there are **no** physical or genomic differences between the two.

      Good video. I did bring up how the eleven Italians got lynched in New Orleans here:

      https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/01/10/refuting-afrocentrism-part-2-are-italians-black/

      They didn’t get lynched due to ‘being black’ as some people claim. It was because they killed a police officer, and as seen in the video, they didn’t do it.

      All in all, these are political differences, not genetic differences. Richard Lynn has been refuted. Southern Italians show higher monetary attainment in America than the average. The cause for this is better nutrition than that of what is gotten in Southern Italy.

      Like

    • Rex says:

      A more recent and reliable source (not the Son’s of Italy estimates you provided) estimates Italian-Americans @ $53,000 dollars when compared to other various other European-American ethnic groups provided: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/S00PAivXUEI/AAAAAAAAAAk/bangxl04qZk/s1600-h/3.png

      Good discussion, information and sources on Italian people: “There is no such thing as a genetic Italy or an Italian (genetically); Italian groups (North Italians / Central Italians / South Italians / Sicilians / Sardinians) are diverse and do not cluster with each other (DiGaetano et al 2012 / Nelis et al 2009) in PCA-plots; In fact Italians are just as little related with each other (IBD sharing) as they are to other nations (Ralph & Coop 2013);

      So the real ‘lesson’ is that Italians, despite being politically ONE nation, are in fact however genetically diverse i.e. not one people; And Sardinians are an isolated old-stock, in fact the last Neolithic remnants in Europe: http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/13645/are-italians-genetically-separated-from-other-europeans

      “Italy is only a geographical expression” http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

      Southern Italian ethno-cultural journal “Il Regno” discusses the “Celebration of Genocide” of Italian-Americans: http://ilregno2s.blogspot.com/2011/03/celebration-of-genocide.html?m=1

      The following article sites a book recently written on the issue of the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the people south of Rome: http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/9511-cultural-recuperation-and-the-case-of-southern-italy

      Book review: https://naplespolitics.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/book-review-“terroni-all-that-was-done-to-ensure-that-the-italians-of-the-south-would-become-meridionali-southerners”-by-pino-aprile/

      Italian-American blogger discusses how southerners identity with the history and culture of their ancestors conquerors (Rome and those north of Rome):

      “Why no one wants to travel to Naples” article sites the fact that only 13% of tourists that visit Italy travel south of Rome” (most are southerners visiting the region and family from abroad): http://www.businessinsider.com/why-no-one-wants-to-travel-to-naples-2015-7

      The south of Italy is “a land at risk of industrial and human desertification, where emigration continues,” said the report by Svimez, the association for industrial development in southern Italy: http://www.thelocal.it/20140731/southern-italy-at-risk-of-desertification

      “Italy Has Europe’s Highest Percentage of Children in Poverty, Says UNICEF” http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/04/italy-has-europe-s-highest-percentage-of-children-in-poverty-says-unicef.html

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    • Rex says:

      Here is an accurate representation of Northern Italians VS Southern Italians. You do not need genetic tests to see that they are clearly of different origins.

      Northern: 1. Stefano Gabbana (founder of Dolce & Gabbana), 2. Giorgio Armani (founder of Giorgio Armani), 3. Garibaldi, 4. Fabio Lanzoni (famous Italian model), 5. Venetian YouTubers

      Famous and prominent Southern Italians: 1. Turturro brothers (Hollywood stars), 2. Gorga family – southern surname (Real Housewives of NJ), 3. Antonio Carluccio (famous southern Italian chef), 4. Ariana Grande (famous singer).

      Like

    • Rex says:

      Northern: 1. Gildo Zegna: CEO of famous Ermelegildo Zegna fashion empire. 2. Claudio Marchisio: current famous football player from Piedmont. 3. Letizia Moratti: former mayor of Milan and businesswoman. 4. Marco Paolini: actor, director, author from Veneto.

      http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/488727326-gildo-zegna-ceo-of-the-zegna-group-poses-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=X7WJLa88Cweo9HktRLaNXpKHFPdJ%2F%2BwpmbQIk5ORLyDFyz1587%2FuePeD5Mmf9lbU%2BMffdCKeVKWjhLnoLAP4Qhm%2B4VudTw4CQ09qlSGQh30%3D

      http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/003/335/254/cb6f01e4722d0fed4ff3d69180b94147_crop_north.jpg?w=630&h=420&q=75

      Southern “Italian” people: 1. Gennaro Gattuso: legendary football player from Calabria. 2. Elisabetta Gregoraci: famous fashion model from Calabria. 3. Sophia Loren: Iconic actress. 4. Marco Materazzi: famous football player assaulted by Zinedine Zidane via headbutt during the 2006 FIFA World Cup. 5. Pauly D Delvecchio: MTV’s Jersey Shore star.

      Here’s another interesting photo. Enzo Ferrari (the founder of Ferrari) was from central Italy, a territory of the Etruscans who were from Anatolia (modern day Turkey). Mesut Ozil, a German national football player, is of Turkish descent.

      “Yet the Etruscans, whose descendants today live in central Italy, have long been among the great enigmas of antiquity. Their language, which has never properly been deciphered, was unlike any other in classical Italy. Their origins have been hotly debated by scholars for centuries.

      Genetic research made public at the weekend appears to put the matter beyond doubt, however. It shows the Etruscans came from the area which is now Turkey – and that the nearest genetic relatives of many of today’s Tuscans and Umbrians are to be found, not in Italy, but around Izmir.

      The European Human Genetic Conference in Nice was told on Saturday the results of a study carried out in three parts of Tuscany: the Casentino valley, and two towns, Volterra and Murlo, where important finds have been made of Etruscan remains. In each area, researchers took DNA samples from men with surnames unique to the district and whose families had lived there for at least three generations.

      They then compared their Y chromosomes, which are passed from father to son, with those of other groups in Italy, the Balkans, modern-day Turkey and the Greek island of Lemnos, which linguistic evidence suggests could have links to the Etruscans.

      “The DNA samples from Murlo and Volterra are much more highly correlated to those of the eastern peoples than to those of the other inhabitants of [Italy],” said Alberto Piazza of the University of Turin, who presented the research. “One particular genetic variant, found in the samples from Murlo, was shared only with people from Turkey.”

      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/18/italy.johnhooper

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    • Rex says:

      Their IQ’s have increased as they’ve mixed with other European ethnic groups in America for well over a century now. Robert De Niro is the typical “Italian-American” today. He is mostly of Irish, English, French, German and Dutch ancestry. Leonardo Dicaprio? Half German at least. Marlon Brando? German and Irish with no ancestry from any part of Italy. Ray Liotta? Scottish, adopted by Italian-Americans. Southerners who have not mixed can easily be found on television shows like Jersey Shore (Pauly D, The Situation, Sammi Sweetheart), Real Housewives of New Jersey (Gorga family), Mob Wives, Jerseylicious, Carfellas, etc.

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    • RaceRealist says:

      Their IQ’s have increased as they’ve mixed with other European ethnic groups in America for well over a century now.

      Italians are pretty ethnocentric and stick to their own for the most part. That’s how I is for my family and the other Italians I know atleast. I know intermarriage rates are pretty high, around 90 percent currently.

      Southerners who have not mixed can easily be found on television shows like Jersey Shore (Pauly D, The Situation, Sammi Sweetheart), Real Housewives of New Jersey (Gorga family), Mob Wives, Jerseylicious, Carfellas, etc.

      They are not a representative of the average Southern Italian. I have a huge family. I’m talking over 60 people at our reunions. My whole family is successful, good government jobs, corrections jobs as well as having college degrees. My family is from Naples and Calabria. I know many successful Southern Italians. These shows where they grab the biggest idiots they can are not a representative of Southern Italians.

      Also, Lynn is clearly being dishonest about Southern Italian IQ as well as non-white admixture. It’s incredibly minute, with more non-white admixture being in Poles, Germans and Austrians. That didn’t “effect their IQs”, so why is it any different between North and South Italians?

      Also, there is greater generic distance between North and South German than between North and South Italians. With that logic North and South Germans are of a different race and should have a ten IQ point difference as well, right?

      The studies I cite disprove Lynn’s thesis on Southern Italian IQ. PISA isn’t even good for gauging IQ. As I’ve shown, PISA scores for Southern Italians and Islands have increased in the past 3 years the last time a sample was taken. Is that any genetic change in thay short a time period? No.

      The disparity can also be partly explained due to immigrants entering from Southern Italy (as that’s where a lot of the North African immigrants come from), who then trek North after entering through the South. They’re then counted as “Italian” when they aren’t ethnically Italian. This skews the stats as well.

      Like

    • ron burgundy says:

      italian americans live in high income areas, like new jersey. not as many in places like west virginia. they are the largest nationality in the nyc area, but they don’t do better than the jews or the irish. do they? compare apples and apples.

      Like

    • ron burgundy says:

      scalia was from nyc. italian americans are still very concentrated in the nyc phili area. a lot in upstate new york too.


      compare the above to irish americans.

      if it’s not IQ then it’s clannishness and low trust that explains s italy’s poverty. italian americans are by far the most conspicuous white ethnics and by far the most chauvinistic and clannish. that is, if jews don’t count as white. the irish blend in. the germans and scandinavians are indistinguishable. etc. the italians stick out.

      Like

  2. Ciro says:

    Rex is a dumb troll who ignores evidence and cherry-picks to make his points.

    When you take random people from north and south Italy, they look mostly the same.

    http://italianthro.altervista.org/amici.html
    http://italianthro.altervista.org/grande-fratello.html

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    • RaceRealist says:

      Exactly. The facial composites I linked show that they’re the same. Physical differences come down to UV rays. Southern Europe gets a similar amount of UV rays as North Africa and the Middle East. That accounts for slight skin color difference as well as physical differences.

      Sure those from the North are more Germanic. However, genetic distance on a PCA graph shows how similar they really are. There is a bigger distance between North and South Germans, are they “of a different race”? No. Temperature differences cover those differences and any and all differences between the North and South are political, not genetic in nature.

      I’d like to see those darker skinned ones get a DNA test, because I can almost guarantee that they don’t have Italian/Greek ancestry and are probably North African/Middle Eastern.

      There are blonde people in the South too. My grandfather is a good example. My grandmother is from Calabria, black hair and brown eyes. There is a lot of diversity between Italian people, but the genetic distance isn’t big enough to call them a different ethnicity. PCA graphs prove that.

      Like

    • Rex says:

      You simply do not like the reality. I’m not the one who manufactured facial composites like RaceRealist did – I saw the time stamp. I’m not the one who selected data that makes “Italian-Americans” appear to be above average in income like the Sons of Italy statistics that were provided by RaceRealist. You ignore, or are ignorant of the fact that around half the population in the north today is of southern origin due to southerners migrating north in the 60’s and 70’s by the millions (that continues to this day) in search for a better life.

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    • Rex says:

      Name calling too, huh? Half my family is from Veneto. I know far more about the society than you all do. Even if Italians were all one people, their histories, cultures and contributions are vastly different.

      Myth 2. Columbus was Italian.

      The National Italian American Foundation calls the Columbus Day parade in New York “the most visible and accessible manifestation of our Italian American Pride,” and Italian Americans have led efforts to oppose changes to the holiday’s focus nationwide.

      But when Columbus lived, there was no such thing as an Italian; Italy did not exist until 1861. The best evidence suggests that the explorer was born in a village near Genoa, which is part of Italy today. To his deathbed, he proudly claimed Genoa as home. In Columbus’s lifetime, Genoa was a fiercely independent republic with its own language, currency and overseas colonies. Its commercial ties to Castile and Aragon, in modern-day Spain, were intimate. Genoese trading colonies in Seville, Barcelona and Lisbon were sizable. Some Genoese who married locally were naturalized Castilian, Catalan or Portuguese subjects. Those cozy relationships helped give rise to a crop of Columbus “birthers.” Catalan, Majorcan, Ibizan, Portuguese, Greek, Sephardic Jewish, Sardinian, Polish and even Scottish claims have been made by a mix of serious scholars and crackpot theorists. Most historians believe that Columbus was Genoese, but they hesitate to call him “Italian,” partly for the reasons stated above, and partly because Columbus left home early and moved around a lot.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-christopher-columbus/2015/10/08/3e80f358-6d23-11e5-b31c-d80d62b53e28_story.html#

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      I’m not the one who manufactured facial composites like RaceRealist did – I saw the time stamp.

      Average Italian women:


      Average Italian man:

      Average Italian man:

      The composites are available with a simple search. Here’s another, from Italianthro:

      Northern and Southern Facial Composites

      Are there other facial composites that show the differences you’re speaking of? I doubt it.

      Fact of the matter is, you can cherry-pick all you want, that’s not a representative of the average population.

      I’m not the one who selected data that makes “Italian-Americans” appear to be above average in income like the Sons of Italy statistics that were provided by RaceRealist.

      Italian Americans by the Numbers – Income, Earnings & Poverty

      You ignore, or are ignorant of the fact that around half the population in the north today is of southern origin due to southerners migrating north in the 60’s and 70’s by the millions (that continues to this day) in search for a better life.

      I know that; the Mafia is a big part of it.

      The Mafia is responsible for between a 16 and 20 percent drop in GDP.
      All you need to do is look at a PCA graph to the two cluster together.

      Here is another:

      They cluster together. Of course there is going to be genetic variation, but that’s seen in all populations. There is no racial difference, there is no Arab/North African/Negro admixture, there is no IQ difference. And with this study, it shows without the Mafia, GDP differences will almost, if not, disappear between the two.

      Like

    • Rex says:

      I’ve noticed you’ve had these conversations with others and don’t like the results and others have called you out on it. North, central and southern “Italians” are just as related to one another as other European populations are to each other. They are different: genetically, and even more so culturally and historically.

      Those in my family from Veneto look like the photos of northern Italians I provided. Southerners in church would always ask, “You’re Italian? You don’t look Italian!” or “You’re just a wannabe Italian” or “You’re only 10% Italian” Even their cuisine was wildly different from the food I knew. They practiced Catholicism different, spoke differently, etc.

      You keep providing statistics (all gathered by “Italian-Americans” ) that are very different from much more reliable government sources I’ve read. But I’m not surprised. Many “Italian-Americans” I’ve seen tend to be egomaniacs and have a superiority complex. The “Italian-American” wiki page reads like a boastful resume, boasting of history that isn’t their own.. It’s so obvious.

      https://doc-0g-ag-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/ha0ro937gcuc7l7deffksulhg5h7mbp1/iuotmhgkhatqibfg446ofj2po2bfj11g/1464184800000/10718852151634554628/*/0B9o3EYTdM8lQV1VNT2dzSUl0RDQ?e=download

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      I’ve noticed you’ve had these conversations with others and don’t like the results and others have called you out on it.

      ??

      They are different: genetically, and even more so culturally and historically.

      See The PCA graph I linked in my last comment.

      You keep providing statistics (all gathered by “Italian-Americans” ) that are very different from much more reliable government sources I’ve read. But I’m not surprised. Many “Italian-Americans” I’ve seen tend to be egomaniacs and have a superiority complex. The “Italian-American” wiki page reads like a boastful resume, boasting of history that isn’t their own.. It’s so obvious.

      Was the analysis link in my previous comment incorrect?

      You go to Wikipedia for serious information? There’s your problem.

      Care to explain what you’re talking about in regards to that?

      See The PCA graph, there is hardly any genetic distance and the distance that is there is normal between all populations in the world.

      See the map of UV rays I linked. The reason for physical differences is designed to that, that’s why there are slight physical differences, they are not racial differences.

      Unless they are, do you have a citation saying they both are racially different?

      Southern Italians have an ancient Greek component, while Northern Italians have an ancient Celtic component. That’s the only difference.

      And this all goes back to the reason for this post: there is no North/South IQ difference, there are substantial no Arab or Negro genes in Southern Italians. Genetic tests show this. The PCA graph proves my point.

      Like

  3. Marian says:

    xThe history books you have studied started with the history of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Italy : the base of the western culture in terms of language, society, politics, science, phylosophy and religion. When in Italy and Greece people were writing, in northern Europe, people were living by robbery and grazing cows. Have you ever heard about of Archimedes, Pythagoras … I will not talk Ettore MaJorana, Verga or Pirandello. We can speak maybe about China, that country that is imitating all that you could consider “Italian” or we could talk about the fact that a huge amount of capitals in the world have Romans columns as architecture gold-standard. If the Romans had not civilized the north europe, all blond guys with blue eyes, today, would have to sell the cow leathers on the street; maybe better, I’m ironic. From the Latin “et credunt fingunt Germans”, and even “The Germans did not know the writing and did not have an alphabet before their contact with the Romans, who took all the elements of civilization. The word” vandal “derives from” Vandals ” (term used for the Germanic peoples of Wandili), looters and destroyers barbarians. From Latin : “Latrocinia nullam infamiam habent quae extra fines cuiusque civitatis fiunt, atque and ac Iuventutis exercendae desidiae minuendae due proud praedicant” Translation: The larceny does not involve dishonor, if committed outside the territories of each people, in fact, the Germans advise the young people to exercise and decrease the inertia (from Customs and Traditions of the Germans).
    A mediterranean climate has allowed the birth of civilization that have been the beginning of modern history, the flywheel of evolution. A better climate increases the complexity of societies and generates classes of individuals who have fitness not only for physical strength and resistance to a selective climate (as in the north or too far south). In old Greece a man could have voting rights and a salary : the artist, as a politician, as the philosopher or the goldsmith. In Italy there were figures like the actor, satirist, writer, sculptor…. a “no limit complex society”. A complex society derived from a perfect climate selects not only for functional bodies, but also for brain abilities.
    The Mediterranean populations genes were selected on the basis of sexual selection (Geoffrey Miller, the last of Darwin’s theory), and they produced art, science, politics, agriculture and health related technologies (Luca Cavalli Sforza). In the north, there were so many beasts: only barbarians. What is the problem? That it’s the truth.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Exactly right. All though cold temperatures allowed the intelligence we have today, those same cold temperatures aren’t conducive to a well-run society.

      What Nordicists don’t realize is that civilization went from South to North in Europe, not North to South. You are correct that the Germanic tribes were barbarian looters, which, if I recall correctly, is one reason Rome fell.

      Thanks for the quotes, they really put things into perspective. I guess that’s where the Afrocentrists thought up the “cave living” of Europeans, when that was really only the North. The South was much more cultured.

      Great post.

      Care to go more in depth on sexual selection in Rome?

      Like

  4. Chinedu says:

    Exactly right. All though cold temperatures allowed the intelligence we have today, those same cold temperatures aren’t conducive to a well-run society.

    HaHa. Hilarious. I marvel at the lengths to which you guys will go to keep justifying your false ideology to yourselves. So, according to you, cold temperatures allowed for greater intelligence. But those with that “greater intelligence” were marauding barbarians for the better part of human history while those in the warmer latitudes had scintillating civilizations. Yet you insist that those in the colder temperatures were smarter. You can’t make this shit up. .

    What proof do you have that cold temperatures enhanced intelligence? Please provide real scientific proof as distinct from pseudoscience or a bunch of incoherent nonsense from a racist blogger. And how to you explain people from around the equator that are much smarter than you? How did they acquire their intelligence if warm weather is incondusive to intelligence?

    Like

  5. frances van siclen says:

    I love Italy- north south east west – it is all great and beautiful in my book !

    Like

  6. Stefano Spagocci says:

    You write a lot of lies. It is now firmly established (and even mainstream Italian media admit to it) that Italy is the more genetically diverse “country” in Europe. There is nothing like “Italy” from the genetic point of view (not even from other points of view, but that’s another matter). There are a few (relative) genetic islands in Europe and two of these, unexpectedly, are Tuscany and “northern Italy”. In particular, “northern Italy” only reconnects to Europe when one considers contributions originated before 400 b.C. When Celtic tribes migrated in the Po Valley. To this, one may add that there is a sharp discontinuity between central-northern Italy and southern Italy, which dates back to Neolithic times. Finally (but I could go on) what you write about the Etruscans is incorrect, as well. Surely, the Etuscan contribution relates Tuscany to part of what is now Turkey. But it has been firmly established that this is a Neolithic contribution. Which is present everywhere in Europe, even in Sweden. The somatic differences between northern and southern Italy are a fact, and I’m talking about averages (as for IQs). And, even if Italy were an ethnic group (which is not at all), the differences in mentality are evident.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      You write a lot of lies.

      In regards to southern Italian IQ, Lynn is the liar.

      Italy is the more genetically diverse “country” in Europe.

      There is nothing like “Italy” from the genetic point of view (not even from other points of view, but that’s another matter).

      Why is there greater genetic differences between North and South Germans in comparison to North and South Italians? This has been noticed in Sweden as well.

      There are a few (relative) genetic islands in Europe and two of these, unexpectedly, are Tuscany and “northern Italy”.

      Don’t forget about Sardinia.

      When Celtic tribes migrated in the Po Valley. To this, one may add that there is a sharp discontinuity between central-northern Italy and southern Italy, which dates back to Neolithic times.

      Northern Italians have an ancient Celtic ancestry while southern Italians have an ancient Greek ancestry. The only genetic differences between the two.

      The somatic differences between northern and southern Italy are a fact, and I’m talking about averages (as for IQs). And, even if Italy were an ethnic group (which is not at all), the differences in mentality are evident.

      Somatic differences are due to differences in nutrition. In America, Southern Italians reach 6 feet. Southern Italians also have great wealth attainment. Almost as if shitty nutrition depresses IQ and body growth…

      There are no differences in IQ between North and South Italians.

      Reread the article.

      Like

  7. Stefano Spagocci says:

    If you reread my post, you will find the answers. Italy is the state (not country, it is not) in which the genetic distance between the various parts are (far) larger. What Germans are or are not is of no concern here (btw, I suspect they are an ethnic group while Italy is not at all). Sardinia is another thing, so what? They are Sardinians, not Italians, the same way as I am a Lombard. The IQ differences are there to see and the increase in performance in PISA tests has a simple explanation (which is given by the Italian Ministry of Education and I won’t insist on it because we would end up arguing on non-genetic matters). More on somatic differences later.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Italy is the state (not country, it is not) in which the genetic distance between the various parts are (far) larger.

      So you’re saying genetic differences in different regions in Italy differ substantially. Source? If you read the end of my piece, you’d see that even when including southern Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians, non-European admixture is negligible.

      What Germans are or are not is of no concern here (btw, I suspect they are an ethnic group while Italy is not at all).

      It is of concern. It shows that two populations (North and South Germans) have greater genetic distance than North and South Italians.

      Sardinia is another thing, so what? They are Sardinians, not Italians

      They, along with Libyans and a few other North African countries are genetic remnants of Carthage.

      The IQ differences are there to see and the increase in performance in PISA tests has a simple explanation (which is given by the Italian Ministry of Education and I won’t insist on it because we would end up arguing on non-genetic matters).

      PISA is not good to infer a population’s intelligence.

      On Raven’s Progressive Matrices, there is no difference.

      Like

  8. Stefano Spagocci says:

    As for somatic differences, study a bit of Greek 🙂 By somatic I mean the difference in look (which refers to averages, of course, like for the IQ). How can they be influenced by nutrition? if, on the other hand, we refer to height, eye colour, hair colour, then you are wrong again. What does eye or hair colour have to do with nutrition? At least on hundred-year time scales. They have to do with climate? Fine, we then agree on something! As for height, it is certainly partly influenced by nutrition. But are you Italian nationalists not always praising Italy for her supposed Mediterranean diet, which would make Italians healthier than the Barbaric northeners? Who follows the Mediterranean diet? Come on! On a more serious note, Cavalli Sforza (whom you surely know) clearly states that the antropometric differences between northern and southern “Italians” are correlates to the genetic differences between them. But more than genetic difference, I should say fracture. Anyway, it is also well known that when in 1861 Italy was (disgracefully) “united”, the economic differences between northern and southern Italy were much smaller than today’s. There were differences in mentality and social structures (I know where they come from!) but I can assure you that here were maybe more people starving in certain regions of the north than in the south. In any case, if we eat differently (which is true), that means (once again) that “we” are not a nation at all.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      I know what soma means.

      How can they be influenced by nutrition?

      IQ, along with height, is 80 percent heritable, *with proper nutrition*. Without, the genetic ceiling for either of those two variables will not be reached.

      What does eye or hair colour have to do with nutrition? At least on hundred-year time scales. They have to do with climate? Fine, we then agree on something!

      This doesn’t have to do with the conversation, but those who are deficient in nutrients show in their hair and eyes. Whether the hair is thin or discolored to whether there is discoloration the eyes.

      The proof is in the fact that when southern Italians come to America, height and intelligence increases. Why? First world societies. It’s no secret how northern Italy fucks the South.

      Cavalli Sforza (whom you surely know) clearly states that the antropometric differences between northern and southern “Italians” are correlates to the genetic differences between them.

      Like… Ancient Celtic ancestry for the North and ancient Greek ancestry for the South.

      There were differences in mentality and social structures (I know where they come from!)

      It’s not genetic.

      but I can assure you that here were maybe more people starving in certain regions of the north than in the south

      Regional differences in cuisine mean…. What exactly?

      Again, there is no intelligence difference between North and South Italians.

      Despite the minor differences between the studies, our results demonstrate quite clearly that raw scores [on Raven’s Coloured Progressive Matrices] of children from Sicily are not lower than those [of children from the North and Central-South] reported by Cornoldi et al. (2010). On the contrary, they are sometimes higher. This result could be related to the fact that the children in our group were tested in group sessions, while children in Italian standardization scores (Belacchi et al., 2008) were tested both in group and individual administration. Belacchi et al. (2008), indeed, found mean raw scores significantly higher in group sessions administration than in individual administration. Moreover, the children in our group were selected for other research purposes, and did not include children with socio-cultural disadvantage or other type of behavioral or cognitive problems. The more extensive sample reported by Cornoldi et al. (2010), on the contrary, was collected with the aim of building norms, and it likely includes a more diverse sample of children coming from different urban and suburban areas, and showing different socio-cultural levels.

      PISA is a shitty metric to see a population’s IQ. Raven’s Progressive Matrices are much superior. Raven’s tests show there is no difference in intelligence.

      Like

  9. Stefano Spagocci says:

    And, to wrap up, since you cite prof. Piazza on Italy, then you should cite everything he writes. Prof. Piazza is totally in favour of Italian unity, since (rightly or wrongly) he thinks that genetics has nothing to do with statehood. Having said that, he explicitely declared that, from the genetic point of view, there is absolutely nothing to define Italianness. I woud say from other points of view, as well. In the popular science paper where he presented the results of his studies, he wrote that the genetic landscape of Italy is virtually frozen to pre-Roman times. And he explicitely writes that all this has to do with the big cultural differences within Italy and with its late “unification”. I know that all over Italy there were Indoeuropean people and Lynn know that, as well. Yet, the Indoeuropean contribution is not at all uniform in Italy (and less in the south). The fracture, anyway, is in the Neolithic component. Which is present everywhere, even in Scandinavia, but like it or not, binds southern Italy to the Middle East. What else is Lynn stating?

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      And, to wrap up, since you cite prof. Piazza on Italy, then you should cite everything he writes.

      I cite Richard Lynn here more than once. Does that mean I should cite all of his work? I’m sure you know that, for instance, his IQ data for Equatorial Guinea is wrong. It’s actually the IQ of sick, retarded Spanish school children. So I should cite that since I cite Lynn here?

      And he explicitely writes that all this has to do with the big cultural differences within Italy and with its late “unification”. I know that all over Italy there were Indoeuropean people and Lynn know that, as well.

      Yes. But the Indo-Europeans were not blonde haired blue-eyed. They had dark hair and dark eyes.

      The Indo-Europeans are the Yamnaya, from the Russian steppe. They share distant ancestry with Siberians. That’s another Nordicist fantasy that the Aryans (Indo-Europeans) were blonde haired and blue-eyed.

      The fracture, anyway, is in the Neolithic component.

      Why is wealth and educational attainment higher for southern Italians in America than in Italy? Seems to me that environment (nutrition) and other factors play a part.

      but like it or not, binds southern Italy to the Middle East

      Did you not see the studies cites at the end of the article? Stating that non-European admixture in Italians is lower than the average for Europe? MENA admixture is negligible.

      What else is Lynn stating?

      He wrongly states that the differences in Italian IQ are due to MENA admixture, which is negligible.

      Like

  10. Stefano Spagocci says:

    Of course, people everywhere have experimented an increase in height with modernity (as long as it brought more food) . So what? But, I repeat, economic conditions were not very different in northern vs southern Italy before “unification”. This cannot explain height differences. And if, on much larger time scales, differences in average height might be (partly) due to different food regimes, so what? This means that we had a Barbaric food regime and you didn’t. Very happy about this! To this I would add that your theory on eye colour is at best debatable. But who cares! On hundred-year time scales food cannot explain anything and, on longer scales, if it does this further proves that “Italy” means nothing!

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Immediate differences in height are noticed when nutrition is lacking in populations.

      My ‘theory’ on eye color is fact. When deficient in nutrition, people look physically worse than those who are not nutrient deficient. I don’t even know why this has to be said. But as I said, that has nothing to do with this conversation.

      100 years definitely can explain a lot. Hell, just *growing up* with food deficient in the right nutrients stunts growth.

      Like

  11. Stefano Spagocci says:

    As for the Germans, the fact that Italy is the “country” where there is a larger difference among its different parts implies that what you state is not correct! Anyway, apart that it is not my businness what they are or are not, the Germans are the offspring of Germanic tribes, so they are an ethnic group. Surely enough, southern Germans are partly Celts and partly Germans but all of Germany has a certain ethnic unity. Italy has not, sorry for you! Having said that, who cares about genetics! It is cultural differences that matter, especially when one part of a country wants to impose an artificial identity to another part.

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    • RaceRealist says:

      As for the Germans, the fact that Italy is the “country” where there is a larger difference among its different parts implies that what you state is not correct!

      There are hardly any differences:

      What’s so hard to understand?

      Like

  12. Stefano Spagocci says:

    My friend, Lynn is not Gospel (as they say in Italy) but what he states is basically correct. IQ, or PISA test results if you prefer, is (strongly) correlated to all the genetic, antropometric and also economic, historical and sociological maps of Italy (see the works of Putnam). And what differentiates central-northern from southern Italy is partly the Indoeuropean contribution (I’m sorry) but mostly the Neolithic one. I.e. in the south there is (much more than) an admixture with the Middle East. Are they not “Niggers”? Fine, no one says so. Anyway, it seems that if we go back 200 kyears we are all kind of “Niggers”. So what? More on IQ and PISA later 🙂 I might agree on the fact that the Aryans were purely Nordic but so what? Looking at the Tarim mummies, I would tend to believe that they were but basically who cares! 75% of the genetic pool in Britain is “Iberian”. So what? Dark hair and eyes are part of the European identity. But the looks or some or many Greeks, southern Italians, Middle Easteners is not completely European. And the culture, as well!

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      what he states is basically correct

      No it’s not. I showed how it’s not in this article.

      What ‘genetic’ differences? Without that, Lynn’s thesis falls apart. The differences are negligible and don’t account for the disparity.

      And what differentiates central-northern from southern Italy is partly the Indoeuropean contribution (I’m sorry) but mostly the Neolithic one. I.e. in the south there is (much more than) an admixture with the Middle East.

      You probably didn’t read this:

      Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%).This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans. (Plaza et al. 2003; Romano et al. 2003)

      Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians’ even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere, but a single sub-Saharan African E(xE3b) sequence was found in the first study’s sample of 416 (0.2%), and six were observed in the second study’s sample of 746 (0.8%). The total is therefore a minuscule 0.6%, which decreases to 0.4% if only Southern Italians are considered and 0% if only Sicilians are considered.Again, these are normal levels of admixture for European populations (e.g. Austrians were found to have 0.8% E(xE3b) by Brion et al. 2004). (Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2004)

      An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a “line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon,” which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.” (Simoni et al. 1999)

      Hardly ANY MENA admixture. It’s NOT the cause and without any substantial admixture, Lynn’s theory falls apart.

      I might agree on the fact that the Aryans were purely Nordic but so what?

      I showed you three studies on the matter. If you want to deny, be my guest. But it doesn’t change that Indo-Europeans (Aryans) were dark haired and dark eyed.

      Looking at the Tarim mummies, I would tend to believe that they were but basically who cares!

      Another Nordicist fantasy!

      The most dominant haplotype found in the Tarim mummies, haplotype C, is southern Siberian.

      Your Nordicist fantasies don’t line up with reality, sorry to say.

      But the looks or some or many Greeks, southern Italians, Middle Easteners is not completely European. And the culture, as well!

      You mean people live in countries where they don’t have paternal or maternal admixture? Surprising!

      Like

  13. Stefano Spagocci says:

    Finally (for today), let us talk about the PISA tests. I tend to agree that they measure IQ, due to the way they are built. But let us say that they do not. Well, the Italian school system is not federal, quite the contrary! So the same things are taught from the Alps to 50 km from Lybia. And the teachers are mostly souterners even in the north. Same programs, teachers coming from the same places, same mass media, same national myth. Yet, even if PISA is not IQ, even if IQ does not measure intelligence, this strange PISA thing gives results that put northern Italy on the side of northern Europe and southern Italy in the good company of other “southern” people. This correlates with the genetic data, it is a fact. I could add that on Lombardy and Piedmont (which do slightly worse) Lynn is not informed. It is not that there is more “admisture”. There are far more southern immigrants! If this is not due to genetic factors (maybe, maybe not), then is it due to the fact that “southern” cultures do not stimulate intelligence? Well, one more reason to stay separated, sorry to say!

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      I tend to agree that they measure IQ, due to the way they are built.

      They don’t.

      In 2006, Finland scored had the highest PISA test scores in Europe, but only a 97 IQ. Romania’s score is near the bottom which would equate to IQ 85 but their national IQ is 94.

      I showed you how PISA is not good to measure a population’s IQ. It’s not like the SAT and IQ correlation, it’s an achievement test.

      Yet, even if PISA is not IQ, even if IQ does not measure intelligence, this strange PISA thing gives results that put northern Italy on the side of northern Europe and southern Italy in the good company of other “southern” people.

      Scores are rising in the South and staying steady in the North. Why is that?

      There are far more southern immigrants! If this is not due to genetic factors (maybe, maybe not), then is it due to the fact that “southern” cultures do not stimulate intelligence? Well, one more reason to stay separated, sorry to say!

      There is a 20 percent difference in GDP between North and South Italy. As luck would have it, the Mafia is responsible for a drop between 16 and 20 percent of the Southern Italian GDP.

      IQ differences don’t exist. Gaps in achievement tests are closing, Lynn’s main thesis for the reason for the score differences are that the South has higher MENA admixture; which is not true!

      Like

  14. Santoculto says:

    Just as it is self-evident that blacks tend to be less cognitively intelligent than white Europeans, the same happens between southern and northern Italians. So why insist on this point, RaceRealist *

    You have South Italian origin *

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      What is also self-evident is that blacks and whites are genetically different. North and South Italians barely are different genetically.

      With blacks and whites there is all of human history to show that blacks are less apt than whites when it comes to creating and maintaining civilization.

      Looking at the history of Southern Europe and the types of civilizations that were based in the Mediterranean, we can see that there were great accomplishments by Mediterranean people.

      The thesis of Southern Italian IQ being lower than the North rests on a supposed generic difference between the two groups which does not exist.

      It’s just a Nordicist fantasy.

      Like

  15. Santoculto says:

    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

    Don’t seems to be a ”nordicist fantasy”

    i’m trying to understand. You accept most part of Lynn works, less the part when he said that south italians are, on avg, less smart than north italians…

    ”What is also self-evident is that blacks and whites are genetically different. North and South Italians barely are different genetically.”

    Don’t seems… ok the difference between ”whites” and ”blacks” are obviously higher than between ”south” and ”north italians” but still salient. In the end, this genetic differences are not the best argument that you can use to refute a bunch of anecdotal and not-so anecdotal evidences about this salient differences between italians, and namely the intellectual differences.

    ”With blacks and whites there is all of human history to show that blacks are less apt than whites when it comes to creating and maintaining civilization.”

    Brazil history: during the colonial period the northeast region was the richest of all brazilian regions. Today is the southeast region that is the richest of all while the northeast is the poorer.

    You can conclude: ”northeastern brazilians ‘are’ poor today, but ‘they’ already was able to produce a rich society”

    But the factual understanding of this situation is: during the colonial period were portugueses (and dutch) who produced a ‘rich’ society.

    There are two types of civilization: the first type, based on a socio-demographic perspective, is basically created and maintained by an intelligent elite. The second, which I call complete ” civilization ”, that is not created and maintained only by an elite, but for all people.

    The US is an example of ” complete civilization ”. An incomplete civilization, the first type, can produce all the characteristics of a ” civilization ”, and yet continue to show great social, technological and cultural disparities among its inhabitants, that is, combining features of societies ‘advanced’ ‘and’ primary ‘.

    For example, we have the oil-rich micro-nations of the arabian peninsula.

    A ” Italy ” was strongly influenced or affected by two empires: Habsburg and Austro-Hungarian. From the little I know of Italian history, there was economic prosperity period of the city-states like Genoa, Venice and some cities in the south of the peninsula as well.

    But the idea that the Italian mafia is responsible for draining 16% of the wealth produced in the Mezzogiorno is very interesting, though, is not an evidence for his thesis.

    Corruption also drain the Brazilian economy, but that does not mean that Brazilians are on average smarter, it’s not a evidence for that.

    ”Looking at the history of Southern Europe and the types of civilizations that were based in the Mediterranean, we can see that there were great accomplishments by Mediterranean people.”

    Why the modern Greeks have not produced the same scale as the ancient Greeks**

    Listen, even in very poor areas in China, students still can score higher in school/cognitive exames than in [comparative] richer subregions like black neighborhoods in NY.

    The modern Greeks are genetically the same as the ancient Greeks *

    You know that the whole of Europe has undergone major genetic changes. Even if the people have remained in genetic terms, this still does not mean that cognitive transformations, dysgenic or eugenic nature, or may not have happened at a great period of time.

    The genetic differences between the northeastern and southeastern Brazil are not that big, though still prominent as those between southern and northern Italians.

    There are socio-economic factors that contribute to understanding this complex dynamic between culture, history and genes. For example, the natural resources. The Brazilian northeast is rich in a time when the colony was closely linked to Portugal, a closer region of Europe, the presence of ” Brazil wood ”.

    When gold was discovered inside the southeast region, this region became the richest. Regions that are on the rise economically tend to attract more people ” smart ” and ambitious.

    Industrialization in Italy happened fundamentally via the use of the rivers, which originate in the Alps to build hydroelectric plants.

    Perhaps, as many believe, the asynchronous development between northern and southern Italy may have attracted and drained the smart fraction of the country’s south, a kind of brain drain.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Yea R1b isn’t prevalent in the South, J2 is. That is the paternal haplotype, if I recall correctly.

      i’m trying to understand. You accept most part of Lynn works, less the part when he said that south italians are, on avg, less smart than north italians…

      I don’t accept all things from Lynn. Like the supposed penis size differences, they’re wrong.

      Don’t seems… ok the difference between ”whites” and ”blacks” are obviously higher than between ”south” and ”north italians” but still salient. In the end, this genetic differences are not the best argument that you can use to refute a bunch of anecdotal and not-so anecdotal evidences about this salient differences between italians, and namely the intellectual differences.

      The PISA is not a good test to infer a population’s IQ, Raven’s Progressive Matrices shows no differences between the North and the South, with the South even beating out the North sometimes. The Raven’s test is the best test to use to see differences between groups.

      You can conclude: ”northeastern brazilians ‘are’ poor today, but ‘they’ already was able to produce a rich society”

      Brazil has had much immigration from Europe, most notably Italy and Germany. It’s not a good comparison. Also, did the ethnic makeup of North Brazil stay the same in that period of time?

      There are two types of civilization: the first type, based on a socio-demographic perspective, is basically created and maintained by an intelligent elite. The second, which I call complete ” civilization ”, that is not created and maintained only by an elite, but for all people.

      Nice observation.

      But the idea that the Italian mafia is responsible for draining 16% of the wealth produced in the Mezzogiorno is very interesting, though, is not an evidence for his thesis.

      The study was done over a 30-year period. Pinotti says:

      Over a thirty-year period, the two regions experience a 16% drop in GDP per capita relative to the synthetic control, at the same time as the difference in murder rates increases from 0 to 3 additional homicides per 100,000 inhabitants (twice as much the average murder rate in Italy during the post-war period). Based on the distribution of placebo estimates for all other Italian regions not significantly affected by organized crime, such changes in GDP and murders turn out to be extremely unlikely under the null hypothesis of zero effect of organized crime.

      Why the modern Greeks have not produced the same scale as the ancient Greeks**

      Malnutrition is one reason. For instance, the Greek famine in the 40s had an adverse effect on the educational achievement in the urban sample in comparison to the rural sample. The famine was worse in the urban areas and those from the urban areas show a worse educational attainment in scholastic achievement.

      Proper nutrition in the womb and during early years of childhood is critical to have proper brain functioning. This, of course, is one reason, while malnutrition in and of itself is a problem.

      The genetic differences between the northeastern and southeastern Brazil are not that big, though still prominent as those between southern and northern Italians.

      A lot of immigration to Brazil is recent, with a lot of Germans and South Italians emigrating there. Not coincidentally, Southern Italian immigrants show high achievement wherever they go. The same for America as well.

      There is a lot of immigration to Brazil that’s recent so it’s not a good comparison.

      The Chinese IQ is quite low in rural areas. Iodine deficiency is the cause.

      To study children's intelligence after universal salt iodization (USI) had been implemented for 10 years in China. Methods: The children of 8 to 10 years were sampled by population proportion sampling method. The samples were divided into groups according to the province, age, sex, urine iodine. Intelligence quotient (IQ) values were measured by the combined Raven's Test in China (CRT-C2). Results The mean IQ of children was 103.4.

      The differences in IQ are huge, compared to who has good nutrition and who doesn’t.

      Perhaps, as many believe, the asynchronous development between northern and southern Italy may have attracted and drained the smart fraction of the country’s south, a kind of brain drain.

      Partly. This is why blacks in the UK score so high on IQ tests, super-selection, only the most intelligent leaving.

      But there are still no differences in IQ between North and South Italy.

      Like

  16. Santoculto says:

    ”I don’t accept all things from Lynn. Like the supposed penis size differences, they’re wrong.”

    What ”supposed” penis size differences*

    ”The PISA is not a good test to infer a population’s IQ, Raven’s Progressive Matrices shows no differences between the North and the South, with the South even beating out the North sometimes. The Raven’s test is the best test to use to see differences between groups.”

    data*

    In terms of temperament, the northern Italians seem to be much more like the South French, Swiss, Austrians and Slovenians than the South Italians. Temperament is also very important. Extraversion tends to result in anti-social behavior, corruption, lack of respect, etc.

    You are descendants of South Italians and you do not want to accept that the population from which you are derived may be less intelligent on average than the North Italian. How many non-South Italians who are concerned to prove ** Seems, Very few …

    Perhaps the cognitive differences are small, but the temperament usually have a big impact. Compare the average behavior of women and men.

    ”Brazil has had much immigration from Europe, most notably Italy and Germany. It’s not a good comparison. Also, did the ethnic makeup of North Brazil stay the same in that period of time?”

    This comparison is valid because you only offer the argument that, while Africa has ever produced the same level of civilization than Europe or Asia, this has not happened to southern Italy in relation to the north. therefore, it is perfectly observed the african ‘inferiority’ to the Europeans and East Asians.

    ”Malnutrition is one reason. For instance, the Greek famine in the 40s had an adverse effect on the educational achievement in the urban sample in comparison to the rural sample. The famine was worse in the urban areas and those from the urban areas show a worse educational attainment in scholastic achievement.

    Proper nutrition in the womb and during early years of childhood is critical to have proper brain functioning. This, of course, is one reason, while malnutrition in and of itself is a problem.”

    I speak of modern Greeks in relation to the ancient Greeks, a gap of 2-2500 years. So was the longest hunger of human history.

    ”A lot of immigration to Brazil is recent, with a lot of Germans and South Italians emigrating there. Not coincidentally, Southern Italian immigrants show high achievement wherever they go. The same for America as well.

    There is a lot of immigration to Brazil that’s recent so it’s not a good comparison.

    The Chinese IQ is quite low in rural areas. Iodine deficiency is the cause.”

    But most Italian immigrants who came to Brazil came from the north, especially the Veneto. Brazil was one of the few countries where the majority of Italian immigrants were from the north.

    On Italian south immigrants, most of their colonies around the world appear to be selected and do not represent the average of those who remained.

    Just stay partially convinced when they were made broader studies especially in the case of China.

    My comparison was not directed to the respective historical background of the two regions, but to refute their argument on the differences white vs. black and southern Italian x northern Italian.

    I showed that a region that was already rich need not have been a direct product of its people but its elite, which are almost always civilizations. And with that I tried to show the difference of two types of civilizations. The fact of northeastern Brazil have been the richest region of the country does not prove anything in the Northeast are not less intelligent, on average, than the inhabitants of southeastern Brazil. In the same way, the fact of southern Italy have already been richer does not prove anything that South Italians are not, on average, less intelligent.

    Like

  17. frances vansiclen says:

    Who cares about all this nonsense anyway ! Live and let live ! It is not important who is smarter or shorter or taller !!!! Who gives a damn anyway !

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      IQ matters in life. Why shouldn’t we care about these things? Why shouldn’t we give criticism to people’s studies if They’re mostly wrong?

      Do you believe that IQ doesn’t correlate highly with love success among other positive variables?

      Like

  18. Carlo says:

    My grandparents were from Calabria. IQ of 156 here. This article is nonsense.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Individual have no effect on averages.

      I don’t believe that South Italians have a lower IQ. In fact, Sicilians score higher than North Italians on RCPM, indicating a South/North gradient.

      Here is part II.

      Like

    • Denny says:

      “In fact, Sicilians score higher than North Italians on RCPM,”

      UH-OH………you just triggered a lot of heart attacks right there, hahahaha!

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      People believe stereotypes and movies and they most definitely believe what they want, truth be damned.

      No IQ gap exists.

      Like

    • Stefano Spagocci says:

      Here we are not talking about stereotypes. We are talking about peer-reviewed scientific studies. According to these studies, the IQ gap does exist. Whatever its causes, it does exist. Are the causes not (directly) genetic? This is probable. Although the “race realists” here are not realist when Southern Italy is involved, there is no “Italian” ethnic group and there is not even a group of connected “Italian ethnies”, distinct from other ethnic groups. This may be the case of modern-day Germany, Spain, France (except Corsica), United Kingdom and Ireland. Not Italy, like it or not. The whole of Central/Northern Europe (including “Northern Italy”, Central Italy and Iberia) may be considered as a group of connected ethnies but Southern Italy is a thing apart and is rather connected to Greece and the Middle East (and Northern Africa for the Caucasian component). Like it or not. Southern Italian IQ, not by chance, is similar to the IQ of these regions. Does it mean that it is genetic? Not necessarily. I personally think it is mainly due to cultural reasons, to the different mentality. The genetic ties and the cultural ties are two faces of the same coin, so as to say. There may be a genetic component, as well, but with today’s data we may only say that there is a genetic correlation (correlation is not necessarily cause).

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      We are talking about peer-reviewed scientific studies

      Point me to robust sample done with actual IQ tests and not PISA.

      A scholastic achievement gap does exist and it is explained by environment, ie school quality and culture.

      Are the causes not (directly) genetic? This is probable.

      Of course it is probable. I don’t rule out any hypothesis. However more robust data than 06 and 09 PISA data says the opposite of Lynn’s conclusion.

      Although the “race realists” here are not realist when Southern Italy is involved

      If there is, without a shadow of a doubt, as large of a gap as Lynn claims I will concede. Though actual IQ tests (not PISA proxies) show no gap, or the south beats out the north. Even then, I admit there may be a small Gao of a few points. However, that is not enough to explain the economic disparities between the north and the south, which is Lynn’s main point to his argument.

      there is no “Italian” ethnic group and there is not even a group of connected “Italian ethnies”

      They still cluster together in PCA.

      This may be the case of modern-day Germany, Spain, France (except Corsica), United Kingdom and Ireland.

      I know this is seen in Sweden as well as Germany. Are they different ethnies?

      but Southern Italy is a thing apart and is rather connected to Greece and the Middle East (and Northern Africa for the Caucasian component)

      Non-European admixture in Italy is lower than average for Europe. See my article on “black Italians“. Yes southern Italians are related to the Greeks due to the Magna Gracea colonies.

      Like it or not. Southern Italian IQ, not by chance, is similar to the IQ of these regions

      Says Lynn’s PISA data.

      . Does it mean that it is genetic? Not necessarily. I personally think it is mainly due to cultural reasons, to the different mentality. The genetic ties and the cultural ties are two faces of the same coin, so as to say. There may be a genetic component, as well, but with today’s data we may only say that there is a genetic correlation (correlation is not necessarily cause).

      I will concede a small gap of two to three points. That’s it though and that’s not enough to explain environmental and economic disparities between the north and south.

      Whatever the case may be, on actual IQ tests there is no gap. This is a fact.

      Like

    • Stefano Spagocci says:

      How hard it is, in these politically correct times, to acknowledge the truth! And it is difficult for Italian (southern) race realists, as well! I’m sorry for you but you are not part of any “Italian race” and you belong to the Levant complex (Caucasian or whatever), to which we do not. It is a fact! First of all, Italy is a very centralized state. As a consequence of this, all Italian students study essentially the same things from the far North to the far South. And, unfortunately, Italian schools are underfunded from the North to the South. And, as eveybody knows, due to the centralized hiring system, many teachers in Northern Italy actually come from Southern Italy (the majority, some people would say, but in any case many many of them). So, it cannot be the fault of the school system. The results of PISA tests are empirically related to IQ. It is not Lynn’s opinion, it is fact! If you (irrationally) refuse this correlation, the fact is that such an indicator as PISA results, which maps what any reasonable person would judge as “intelligence” rather than notions, (strongly) divide Italy. Northern and Central Italy have PISA scores at the same level as Central and Northern Europe, Southern Italy is close to the Levant and Northern Africa. Your “theory” does not account for this. Lynn’s does, “mine” as well. How do you explain the fact that PISA (or IQ) tests are consistently below the Northern/Central Europen average in all the countries that are genetically similar and distinct from the Northern/Central European complex? is this due to the fact that all of them are “poor”? And why are they “poor”? You could say that the “evil Northern Italians” depauperated the South (not an explanation, see below) but what about the other Levantine countries? Are you implying that the inteligence level was equally “low” before the Industrial Revolution and it grew in all Northern/Central European countries? You have to give empirical evidence for this!I don’t know of any. And why, starting from the same IQ levels, all the Central/Northern European people suddenly became “rich”? Your politically correct “theory” does not explain this. If, instead, IQ is genetic and/or determined by mentality (and/or, mind you), all of the above is easily explained, since the different mentality (i.e. culture i.e. weltanshauung), be it partially genetic or not, acted as a catalyzer for industrialization and “richness”. There is an empirical proof of this for Italy, if you are aware of Putnam’s studies. We know that, before the “unification” of Italy, the South was only slightly poorer than the North. But the degree of civicness (measured with a rigorous methodology), or rather the sharp difference in civicness between Northern and Southern Italy, was the same in 1861 as it is nowadays. And civicness, like many other indicators, is strongly correated to the genetic data (correlation may or may not mean cause but it is compatible with it). The difference in mentality caused the difference in richness, not the other way round. And if richness was an effect and not a cause, your “theory” looses its value.

      Like

    • Stefano Spagocci says:

      As an aside, I see that some people post pictures of Northern and Southern Italians to “prove” their “theories”. I know the game, I’ve seen it played for twenty years at least. Not that I believe in the race stereotyping that is done on Jews but I notice that, among the tactics used, one is that of posting pictures of “Northern Italians” of Jewish or Southern Italian origins! In any case, one has to look at statistics and not to the single cases. Every Gaussian has a (theoretically infinite) tail! Genetic maps say that not only no “Italian” ethnic group, let alone “race”, exists. It also says that there is not even a group of “italian” ethnies which blend into each other and are distinct from other groups of ethnies. “Northern/Central Europe”, to which “Northern Italy”, Central Italy and Iberia belong, is such a group of ethnies. Southern Italy is not part of this group, sorry for you or anyone else! And it is also not true that there are genetic distances within Italy but they are the same as in any other country. Genetic distances within Italy are the highest in Europe. In addition, most other European states have their (non immigrant) citizen belonging to the same ethnic group of ethnic complex (in the sense stated above). Italy does not. This is a fact, like it or not! I personally do not give a particular value to anthropometry in itself (if it is not correlated to genetic maps) but, talking about anthropometrics, or the old fashioned “racial” classifications, Italy is also divided along the same North/South line, whatever pictures you may show! Speaking of anthropometric data, you should be aware of Livi’s work. It also shows a divided Italy, sorry for the politically correct and sorry, as well, for the racists that do not accept the “racial methodology” to be applied to them!

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      How hard it is, in these politically correct times, to acknowledge the truth!

      Show me some robust IQ studies showing this 10-point gap.

      all Italian students study essentially the same things from the far North to the far South.

      Quality of schooling matters.

      So, it cannot be the fault of the school system.

      The data says otherwise.

      The results of PISA tests are empirically related to IQ. It is not Lynn’s opinion, it is fact!

      Perhaps you missed this:

      Problems in deriving Italian regional differences in intelligence from 2009 PISA data

      If you (irrationally) refuse this correlation, the fact is that such an indicator as PISA results, which maps what any reasonable person would judge as “intelligence” rather than notions, (strongly) divide Italy. Northern and Central Italy have PISA scores at the same level as Central and Northern Europe, Southern Italy is close to the Levant and Northern Africa.

      So PISA scores (the gap is closing, if you didn’t know) show the cause for economic disparities between the north and south?

      For example, Bratti, Checchi, and Filippin (2007) investigated the existence and dimension of territorial differences in the maths skills of Italian students. Their analysis benefited from the data set that merges the 2003 wave of the PISA data (OECD, 2003) with territorial data collected from several statistical sources and with administrative school data from the ItalianMinistry of Education. In addition to the standard gradient represented by parental education and occupation (PISA Economic, Social and CulturalStatus index), they considered three different groups of educational input: individual characteristics (mainly family background), school types and available resources, and territorial features related to labour market, cultural resources and aspirations. In particular, among the local factors measured at Province level, they found a substantial impact of buildings maintenance and likelihood of employment. Student sorting across school types was also found to play a relevant role (in the North student sorting takes place according to ability and is based on school tracking and repetition: a less talented student is directed towards technical/vocational schools and/or held back one or more years; in the South students are less sorted among tracks). When accounting for territorial differences, Bratti et al. (2007; see also Santello, 2009) found that most of the North–South divide (75%) is accounted for by differences in school financial resources, teacher tenures, family background, while other contextual variables account for the remaining fraction. In conclusion, correcting for family and context background removes a sizable part of the postulated genetic differences between regional groups.

      The mean Southern Italian children IQ is not particularly low: A reply to R. Lynn (2010)

      If you were to read the comments in this thread (as well as my other article), you’d see that this has been addressed already.

      The Mediterranean acted as a genetic barrier.

      Although the Southeastern Mediterranean islands seem to have acted as a bridge from Anatolia to Southern Europe, the relatively small degree of gene flow between the African and the European coasts shows that the Mediterranean Sea also had a barrier function as also suggested with studies of mtDNA polymorphisms. Thus, the Mediterranean seems to have facilitated the migrations of Neolithic farmers along its Southern European coast but it mostly acted as an isolating factor between its European and African coasts.

      Maritime route of colonization of Europe

      How do you explain the fact that PISA (or IQ) tests are consistently below the Northern/Central Europen average in all the countries that are genetically similar and distinct from the Northern/Central European complex?

      Addressed.

      Are you implying that the inteligence level was equally “low” before the Industrial Revolution and it grew in all Northern/Central European countries?

      Well, for one, consumption of fish products is higher in northern Europe than in southern Europe. The math section of the PISA exam is strongly correlated with fish consumption—particularly being positively correlated with DHA and n-3 intake and negatively correlated with n-6 intake (Lassek and Gaulin, 2013). So, you tell me what this means.

      We know that, before the “unification” of Italy, the South was only slightly poorer than the North. But the degree of civicness (measured with a rigorous methodology), or rather the sharp difference in civicness between Northern and Southern Italy, was the same in 1861 as it is nowadays. And civicness, like many other indicators, is strongly correated to the genetic data (correlation may or may not mean cause but it is compatible with it). The difference in mentality caused the difference in richness, not the other way round. And if richness was an effect and not a cause, your “theory” looses its value.

      This has been addressed. I wrote a follow-up here.

      As for your other comment, you need to read this.

      Like

    • phil says:

      To Stefano,

      ” It also says that there is not even a group of “italian” ethnies which blend into each other and are distinct from other groups of ethnies. “Northern/Central Europe”, to which “Northern Italy”, Central Italy and Iberia belong, is such a group of ethnies. Southern Italy is not part of this group, sorry for you or anyone else!”

      Actually what is shows are pulls and that they are indeed a mixture of Groups with different distributions, the only major seperate entity being Sardinians

      http://www.unz.com/gnxp/italy-from-top-to-boot/#comment-1254143

      “And it is also not true that there are genetic distances within Italy but they are the same as in any other country. Genetic distances within Italy are the highest in Europe.”

      RR, just show this idiot the genetic differences compared to Germany as he provides no sources and is obviously ranting. While the diveristy is high, it is expected based on distance shape of the country.

      “In addition, most other European states have their (non immigrant) citizen belonging to the same ethnic group of ethnic complex (in the sense stated above). Italy does not. This is a fact, like it or not!”

      Ethnicity and genetics are two different things, elaborate. Ethnically speaking Italy actually did spread with others on a network of Latin and Latin-like Speakers. There were indeed different groups with different histories, but how is that different from many other populations in Pre-modern Europe?

      “I personally do not give a particular value to anthropometry in itself (if it is not correlated to genetic maps) but, talking about anthropometrics, or the old fashioned “racial” classifications, Italy is also divided along the same North/South line, whatever pictures you may show! Speaking of anthropometric data, you should be aware of Livi’s work. It also shows a divided Italy, sorry for the politically correct and sorry, as well, for the racists that do not accept the “racial methodology” to be applied to them!”

      The best data I have is Northern Italy having a significant Alpo-Dinaric component with Atlanto-Med while the Mainland south and Sicily being more Mediteranean with a Alpine streak.

      Hardly Stark though.

      http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/italians.html

      Like

  19. Denny says:

    If everyone is hating on the Meridionali so much, then why did they go through the trouble of uniting the Peninsula???? Some claim it was for the gold in the south. Either way, Northern migration stopped and Southern began.

    Some famous Settentrionali:

    http://image.slidesharecdn.com/vilfredoparetoreport-130623173248-phpapp01/95/vilfredo-pareto-report-1-638.jpg?cb=1372008880

    Do facts matter? Nice move by the troll taking a photo of an elderly Sophia Loren, all tanned up, as “evidence.” BTW, Garibaldi is clearly Dinaric.

    Like

  20. Denny says:

    Apparently some Southerners want out of this union:

    https://www.facebook.com/MagnaGreciaConfederazione/

    Like

  21. tony b says:

    I’m not a geneticist nor an anthro specialist…but isn’t it obvious by now that biology is always in a state of flux and therefore it’s impossible to pinpoint any kind of attribute that could simply change over time?

    On the other hand, over the years, I found that my favorite musician was Frank Zappa and that my favorite film-makers were Martin Scorsese and Frank Capra; all three widely considered as geniuses. I never realized that all three were Sicilian-Italians…so it did strike me that there was something in the DNA.

    There’s simply too many factors…but here’s my two cents….

    1 Migrations from southern Italy to the north is something that occurs worldwide as people who begin to accumulate money or have a lot of ambition to make money, most often separate themselves from the areas of the poor (with its accompanying crime rate, lack of cultural institutions, food and medical resources that directly affect brain development etc…).

    2 Italy…from Rome down, was occupied by caucasian Arabs for less than seventy years, not hundreds of years like Spain and some parts of France. The occupiers were in a constant state of war. It’s hard to see how any major assimilation or admixture could take effect.

    3 There was never a Negro invasion of Europe, ever. If you consider one man…a dark-skinned Hannibal that invaded northern Italy through the Alps, then ok, but his occupation was no more than a few years. I don’t give much credence to Afro-centrist “scholars” desperately trying to revise history to show that African “empires” compared to the European empires or culture.

    4 Sub-Saharan / North African race-mixing became more pronounced after the slave trade exploded FIVE–HUNDRED years AFTER the Berbers were in Italy. Northern European slave traders like the English and Dutch as well as German, Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Jewish slave-owners in America with four-hundred years of race-mixing with slaves must show a higher admixture.

    In America, “whitened” people of Negro extraction would never reveal that their grandmother was black and often married into the above communities of northern European descent.

    5 Food most definitely has an effect on intellect. India has some of the lowest rates of dementia and alzheimers and at the same time, has some of the highest IQ’s. Studies now attribute this to the amount of tumeric in their curries.

    Like

  22. Watchman says:

    From the European Journal of Human Genetics: s.it in light green = “Southern Italian” http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/377578ejhg2015233x8.jpg

    c.it – Central Italy
    n.it -Northern Italy
    aos – Aosta Valley
    sar – Sardinia

    Richard Lynn responds to the critics on Southern Italian IQ: https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/iqs-in-italy-are-higher-in-the-north-a-reply-to-felice-and-giugliano.pdf

    Colonization of Southern Italy: “The so-called Unification of Italy in 1860 was, for the South, an invasion and occupation with as many as a million people killed; women and children massacred; men shipped north to die in a concentration camp, their numbers unknown as the bodies were dissolved in caustic lime; hundreds of thousands imprisoned without any charges or trials; torture; rape; iron works and steel mills and agriculture destroyed; railroad tracks torn up; police duties entrusted to (thereby establishing the power of) the Mafia and the Camorra; the gold from the treasury of the Spanish Bourbon Kingdom of the Two Sicilies carried north to pay off the debts of Piedmont.” http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/9511-cultural-recuperation-and-the-case-of-southern-italy

    Immigrants from the Mezzogiorno were desperate to gain acceptance in American society, so they created an identity for themselves by popularizing all the peoples and cultures of the Italian peninsula as one in order to make themselves more desirable. Columbus was their homemaking myth (Immigrant Minds, American Identities: Making the United States Home, 1870-1930).

    Columbus was not Italian (point #2 in https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-christopher-columbus/2015/10/08/3e80f358-6d23-11e5-b31c-d80d62b53e28_story.html?utm_term=.e61f09f34145): “The National Italian American Foundation calls the Columbus Day parade in New York “the most visible and accessible manifestation of our Italian American Pride,” and Italian Americans have led efforts to oppose changes to the holiday’s focus nationwide. But when Columbus lived, there was no such thing as an Italian; Italy did not exist until 1861. The best evidence suggests that the explorer was born in a village near Genoa, which is part of Italy today. To his deathbed, he proudly claimed Genoa as home. In Columbus’s lifetime, Genoa was a fiercely independent republic with its own language, currency and overseas colonies.”

    “Columbus Day & Consequences: Re-examining Italian American Commemorations, Historic Anxieties, and (Some of ) the Narratives they Silence” by Kathryn Anastasi discusses why and how immigrants from Southern Italy came to celebrate Columbus Day — a desire to be white and accepted in American society: http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1102&context=tapestries

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    • RaceRealist says:

      From the European Journal of Human Genetics

      This isn’t novel information. Point is, N. Italians cluster in the Med cluster in PCA, which is what that graph shows along with the one I used in this article.

      Richard Lynn responds to the critics on Southern Italian IQ

      I covered this here.

      North/South Differences in Italian IQ: Is Richard Lynn Right? Part II

      The colonozation of S. Italy is a large cause of economic disparities between the N. and S. Italians.

      Immigrants from the Mezzogiorno were desperate to gain acceptance in American society, so they created an identity for themselves by popularizing all the peoples and cultures of the Italian peninsula as one in order to make themselves more desirable. Columbus was their homemaking myth (Immigrant Minds, American Identities: Making the United States Home, 1870-1930).

      Italians were white on arrival.

      Why must you spread lies?

      Why should I care if Columbus wasn’t what we call Italian today? He was born in an area that is now called Italy.

      Do you think that really means anything to me?

      a desire to be white and accepted in American society

      Read the above link.

      Like

  23. Watchman says:

    This isn’t that difficult, my friends. Many modern nations are made up of different people. Scotland is another example. The Highlanders (mostly came from Ireland and were Gaelic speaking) were once considered a barbaric race by the Lowland Scots and English.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      The genetic distance between north and south Germans and north and south Swedes is greater than the distance between north and south Italians. Does this mean that those two nations are made up of different peoples as well?

      Like

  24. Matt says:

    Southern “Italians” are some of the most corrupt and deceptive people on earth. Lie, deny, and repeat.

    Like

  25. Matt says:

    I don’t know how Germany came to be. They have different cultures, histories as well. Northern Italians aren’t nordic. The only error Lynn appears to have made was giving Italy an average IQ of 102 when it is truly around the mid 90’s. He corrected it recently.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      I don’t recall how Germany came to be, I’ll get back to you on that.

      Northern Italians aren’t Nordic, Lynn is clearly biased.

      Other studies on actual IQ data show the reverse; Southern Italians outscore Northern Italians. I’ll cite studies later.

      Lynn has no idea what he’s talking about here.

      Do you recall which paper Lynn revised his numbers for southern Italians?

      Also read part II to this article. I’m going to write a 3rd rebuttal eventually.

      Like

  26. Pari says:

    Richard Lynn responds to criticism from Southern Italians who are in denial with data as proof for their lower intelligence: https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/iqs-in-italy-are-higher-in-the-north-a-reply-to-felice-and-giugliano.pdf

    Like

  27. Pari says:

    I’m sure centuries of inbreeding and emigration also has a lot to do with low IQ in Southern Italians.

    Like

  28. ron burgundy says:

    the official national socialist ideology as expounded by alfred rosenberg is…

    ancient greece and ancient rome and ancient persia and ancient india were all founded by aryans.

    the aryans were fairer than modern greeks, romans, persians, and indians.

    how much fairer? idk. it doesn’t matter. just fair-er.

    it’s all explained here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Twentieth_Century

    the “aryan” is not just a gay fantasy.

    what the nazis meant by “aryan” was “indo-european”. the evidence for these people is not so much archeological as linguistic. the linguistic evidence is that at one time in the distant past. maybe 8,000 years ago. there was one tribe which conquered europe and iran and india. this tribe may have come from the russian steppe or from the mouth of the danube or from germany or from anatolia. it’s not clear. but it is clear that this tribe is not theoretical. there was such a tribe.

    Like

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Charles Murray

Arthur Jensen

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