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Home » Race Realism » White Men Can’t Jump? That’s OK; Black Men Can’t Swim

White Men Can’t Jump? That’s OK; Black Men Can’t Swim

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Charles Darwin

Denis Noble

JP Rushton

Richard Lynn

L:inda Gottfredson

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1200 words

Everyone sees how athletic blacks are, for instance in football, but why don’t blacks like swimming? Black children drown at a rate almost three times higher than white children. 70 percent of black children can’t swim, compared to 60 percent of ‘Hispanic’ children and 40 percent of white children. A combination of genetic and environmental factors are involved in this.

JP Rushton writes in Race, Evolution and Behavior (pg. 163):

Body structure differences likely account for the differential success of blacks at sporting events. Blacks are disproportionately successful in sports involving running and jumping but not at all successful at sports such as swimming. For example in the 1992 Olympic Games in Barcelona, blacks won every men’s running race. On the other hand, no black swimmer has ever qualified for the U.S. Olympic swim team. The bone density differences mentioned above may be a handicap for swimming.

Rushton noted above this paragraph that there are bone density differences between blacks and whites which have been noted at all ages and skeletal sites, remaining even after controlling for body mass. These differences even appear before birth, prenatally. Divergence in length and width of the bones in black and white fetus is followed by greater weight of black infants in comparison to white infants. These skeletal differences in weight obviously persist into adulthood, which then have implications for blacks with swimming, but give them advantages in other sports.

At the time of the writing of Race, Evolution, and Behavior in 1997, no black had ever qualified for the U.S. Olympic Swimming Team. However, Anthony Ervin became the first black swimmer to qualify for the Olympic swim team in the year 2000. The fact that it took so long for a black swimmer to make the Olympic swim team shows a genetic component.

Also contributing to this phenomenon is the fact that blacks have narrower chest cavities along with heavier skeletons (as mentioned above), this makes it harder for blacks to stay afloat and swim in the water. A smaller chest cavity brings with it less mobility while doing strokes in the water in comparison to one with a wider chest cavity.

Hochberg (2007) notes that fracture risk, particularly hip fractures, in whites is higher than for blacks in both sexes at 10.1 and 4.1 percent for white and black women respectively while the percentage is 4.3 and 3.1 percent for white and black men respectively. Other analyses of people aged 65 to 90 show 16.3 and 5.3 percent in white and black women while the percentage is 5.5 and 2.6 percent for white and black men respectively. Why do white women suffer more fractures? When women hit menopause, the drop in estrogen coincides with bone loss and osteoperosis. Moreover, in 2010, the Food Surveys Research Group published Fluid Milk Consumption in the United States, which shows women drink less milk then men, with seniors drinking less milk than all age groups (pg. 4). We can then infer from this that senior white women drink less milk, which is then another cause for more hip fractures and weaker bones. Though, there is of course a genetic component with blacks having stronger bones. However, stronger bones means heavier bones, which is a disadvantage when it comes to swimming.

Another funnier reason for blacks non-ability for swimming is that since blacks have a higher single mother rate (72 percent) they didn’t take them to the pool and teach their kids how to swim because they “didn’t want to get their hair wet”, as they put so much time in their hair. This may contribute to this slightly, but the physiological and biological differences mentioned above contribute a far greater amount of variance.

Blacks also wouldn’t be good swimmers due to them having more type II muscle fibers than type I, meaning their muscles fire off quicker and therefore tire quicker. This is why blacks are good sprinters, but would suffer in swimming events. Blacks also have a higher fat free bone density than whites, which leads to blacks not being able to float since fat floats.

For the same reasons why blacks wouldn’t be good swimmers, whites can’t jump, on average. Type II muscle fiber doesn’t allow for the explosive power needed to be able to jump as well as blacks. Even though blacks have a heavier skeletons than whites on average, they can still jump due to their muscle fiber typing. This is also why whites are underrepresented in the NBA (which is 74.4 percent black). Testosterone and musculoskeletal differences are the causes for racial differences in sports.

Whites drown more than blacks before 5 years of age, but after 5 years, more blacks drown in comparison to whites. Drowning in natural water settings was significantly higher for blacks than for whites, with blacks drowning more than whites at ages 7-8 through 17-18 years of age. Swimming pool drowning rates was also shown to be elevated for black children This data shows that after 5 years of age, blacks drown at a significantly greater amount than whites or ‘Hispanics’, which is attributed to the data above.

In our ‘post-racial society’, it’s become taboo to study, and even speak of differences so prevalent in our society, seeing as sports is a huge part of many peoples’ lives around the world. Most of the stars everyone speaks of are black. They must, subconsciously atleast, notice that these differences are there seeing the racial differences on the screen (except for baseball). Of course practice has a part in becoming elite in whatever sport is chosen, however, the best also have a higher inclination to want to do better as well as already being genetically gifted. Those who are more genetically different are, obviously, on the right side of the bell curve, thus, are extremely rare. Though, we can see these genetic disparities in racial differences in sports, with swimming being a huge tell.

It’s not just “a racist joke” that blacks can’t swim, there is biological and physical evidence that blacks, on average, have a more difficult time in the water due to difference in fat-free body mass as well as more narrow chest cavities and heavier skeletons than whites. The same reasons why blacks dominate other sports (football, soccer, boxing, basketball) is the same reason why blacks are underrepresented as swimmers: their biology. However, the trope that white men can’t jump is true as well, and also has it’s origin in genetic differences between the races.

The cause for racial disparities in drowning, as well as in swimming competitions is due considerably to genetic factors such as bone density and chest cavity narrowness. Other environmental factors include children not being taught how to swim due to them being more likely to be raised by single mothers. Bone density and heaviness also shows why blacks suffer less fractures than whites, with white women suffering from it the most. That same bone heaviness is also a reason why blacks are not good swimmers. Muscle fiber typing play a difference in racial differences in sports ability, which the races also vary in significantly. For these reasons, “White men can’t jump.” That’s OK, because “Black men can’t swim.”

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32 Comments

  1. Arkenaten says:

    Hey, dipshit,did you notice the black swimmer in Rio?
    That must have really pissed on your bonfire.
    What a fucking loser you truly are.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Hilarious comment.

      Hey a white man won the 100m dash 40 years ago. Must mean whites and blacks are similar in sprinting so musculoskeletal differences and muscle fiber differences don’t real!

      Hey did you notice the Ethiopian swimmer in Rio who finished dead last and who was only there because he got an invitation from a swimmers group that extends invitations to underrepresented countries? I assume he was one of the best in his country. But look at how he does against real elite swimmers, who actually have swimmer’s bodies.

      Like

    • Arkenaten says:

      Yes, but there was a black swimmer on the podium!
      One small step and all that right?

      Remember Alan Wells? I do. Different sport, of course and a long time ago! I wonder if you are able to see the connection?

      I am surprised you haven’t found a reason to dismiss Lewis Hamilton yet?
      Perhaps you have already? You write an awful lot of racist shit so it would take rather a long time to wade through it.
      If you have, please provide a link as I would be interested in your educated view as to why he is such a good driver?

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    • RaceRealist says:

      Yes I did notice. I noticed a black woman won the 100m freestyle. Is that supposed to mean anything…..? Does one data point disprove averages now?

      A reason to dismiss Alan Wells? He’s one person. Again, doesn’t disprove the average. Look at all of those who have placed in these events, and they’re black. The cause is muscle fiber typing, musculoskeletal differences, limb length and lower fat-free mass. Just so happens that the higher amount of West African ancestry means they’re less likely to be obese, and thus be outstanding sprinters with all of the aforementioned variables.

      And if you want to read more ‘racism’ then read the post I made last night Muscle Fiber Typing, HBD, and Sports.

      I haven’t written about him. Muscle fiber typing dictates differences in athletic achievement. Just like IQ dictates differences in educational achievement, and what do you know? There are racial differences in those two traits.

      What about NASCAR? My view of why he’s a good driver? Practice obviously. You also keep throwing single data points at me. Look at averages. That’s what really matters.

      And there’s nothing ‘racist’ on this site (whatever that means). I back all of my claims.

      Like

    • Arkenaten says:

      Single data points?
      Well, it has to start with the first one surely?
      And Alan Wells was the last white man to win the 100 m.
      You probably had to look it up?

      What about NASCAR?
      Only takes one driver.

      Of course this site is in no way racist, I realize that.
      You just like dressing up in white sheets on the weekend I suppose and this is a fashion choice, right?

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    • RaceRealist says:

      “You probably had to look that up?”

      Nope. I’m interested in sports. Knew it off the top of my head.

      “Only takes one driver.”

      OK, and? What you’re saying is meaningless. Also, you’re talking about one person. Look at averages.

      “You just like dressing up in white sheets on the weekend I suppose and this is a fashion choice, right?”

      Baseless statement with no evidence to back it up.

      How about talking about the data I present in this article instead of your baseless attacks?

      Like

    • Arkenaten says:

      Oh, so you are not in any way a fan of the KKK?
      The data is designed to reveal what you want it to reveal but there are numerous things that are not taken into consideration.
      And if I have to explain them then you are more dense than I first thought.
      But, once again, I am interested in what your (apparent ) gripe is against black people in general (aside from AA) that would make you devote so much time and energy to try and prove they are not quite as worthy as the rest of us? At least this is how it comes across.
      Oh, and just point of interest, are you are collector of WWII memorabilia?

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      “Oh, so you are not in any way a fan of the KKK?”

      No.

      ” The data is designed to reveal what you want it to reveal but there are numerous things that are not taken into consideration.”

      Such as?

      “But, once again, I am interested in what your (apparent ) gripe is against black people in general (aside from AA) that would make you devote so much time and energy to try and prove they are not quite as worthy as the rest of us?”

      I don’t have a gripe. My views are based on the data. The truth about racial differences in behavior and cognitive ability need to come to the general public. It’s not about “proving they’re not as worthy”, it’s about telling the truth.

      “are you are collector of WWII memorabilia?”

      No.

      Like

    • Arkenaten says:

      Why does this truth need to come to the (attention of) the general public?
      Exactly what do you expect achieve?

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Why doesn’t the truth need to come out? Why lie that “white supremacy” is holding people down when it’s their own natural ability? It’s disingenuous to keep spouting lies when the truth is much easier.

      “You didn’t succeed because you’re not smart enough. On average, blacks are less intelligent than Whites which is why blacks aren’t as successful.”

      I want everyone to recognize racial and ethnic differences for all things. That way, we can have a better society. When the general public comes to know the truth then we can start to reverse some of the garbage in our country (like affirmative action).

      Like

  2. Arkenaten says:

    Every time one example is shown to negate any of your assertions based on racial profiling demonstrates how fallacious your arguments are. It is that simple.

    “You didn’t succeed because you’re not smart enough. On average, blacks are less intelligent than Whites which is why blacks aren’t as successful.”

    Source for this quote?

    I want everyone to recognize racial and ethnic differences for all things. That way, we can have a better society.

    How exactly and please be specific by giving a list of example, will this make for a better society.

    When the general public comes to know the truth then we can start to reverse some of the garbage in our country (like affirmative action).

    What other ”garbage” besides AA are you talking about? Once again, please be specific and list examples.

    Like

  3. peterlawrencethompson says:

    You are completely clueless about the roots of the disparity between Black and White people in competitive swimming. Sad, because 5 minutes of Google research would have let you know how pathetic your conclusion was. To summarise, racist practices about swimming pool usage entirely account for the historical disparity, which is beginning to disappear now that those practices are less prevalent. It takes time because Olympic level swimming start as very young children.

    http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/motel-manager-pouring-acid-water-black-people-swam-pool-1964/

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      You are completely clueless about the roots of the disparity between Black and White people in competitive swimming.

      Not at all. All of the conclusions I came to are based on the data.

      Sad, because 5 minutes of Google research would have let you know how pathetic your conclusion was. To summarise, racist practices about swimming pool usage entirely account for the historical disparity, which is beginning to disappear now that those practices are less prevalent. It takes time because Olympic level swimming start as very young children.

      Five minutes of Google searching will lead you to:

      1) Blacks have lower fat-free body mass on average. This hinders them when it comes to swimming because fat floats.

      2) Blacks have, on average, a narrower chest cavity than whites.

      3) Bone density differences also play a factor. Blacks have heavier bones.

      Cute article, but what does it prove? That someone 50 plus years ago dumped acid into a pool with black in it? Are you trying to say that this one incident is the reason why blacks don’t swim?

      Respond to the data I cited in my article.

      Like

    • peterlawrencethompson says:

      The data you cited is irrelevant… none of the thousands of Olympic athletes are “average” human beings A generation ago the same sorts of things were cited (center of gravity too low, etc.) to “prove” that female Black gymnasts would never compete at the top level. Further back, the same sort of nonsense embarrassed the organizers of the 1936 Olympics. Thankfully, our culture very slowly gets to see past the narrow, sad, frightened world view of people like yourself.

      I predict, with considerable confidence, that the number of Black swimmers on the USA Olympic team will exceed the percentage of Black people in the USA population within 8 years. But by then you’ll have moved on to gathering meaningless data to prove some other inane nonsense about people that you’re afraid of.

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      The data you cited is irrelevant… none of the thousands of Olympic athletes are “average” human beings A generation ago the same sorts of things were cited (center of gravity too low, etc.) to “prove” that female Black gymnasts would never compete at the top level.

      It’s not irrelevant at all. Of course they’re not ‘average’. However, those same averages matter when you’re talking about the best of the best in those sports. The data I cited shows why there are fewer blacks in some sports and more blacks in others.

      Further back, the same sort of nonsense embarrassed the organizers of the 1936 Olympics. Thankfully, our culture very slowly gets to see past the narrow, sad, frightened world view of people like yourself.

      Yea, NS Germany obviously was clueless to muscle fiber typing. Owens dominated them because of his muscle fiber typing and limb length. Are you trying to say that you can practice to be this good? Can some guy with garbage genetics train to be Usain Bolt in a 100m dash? I’m talking about racial differences in sports, why are you talking about a “narrow, sad, frightened world view”?

      I predict, with considerable confidence, that the number of Black swimmers on the USA Olympic team will exceed the percentage of Black people in the USA population within 8 years. But by then you’ll have moved on to gathering meaningless data to prove some other inane nonsense about people that you’re afraid of.

      Please come back here in 4 and 8 years. I’d love to see how wrong you are. You do know the first black Olympic swimmer only qualified in the year 2000, right?

      Sure you’ll see some anomalies, but on average, blacks have a harder time swimming due to the aforementioned variables. That part is not even in dispute.

      Like

    • peterlawrencethompson says:

      I will look forward to it in 2024.

      For now lets take a look at the facts:
      13.2% US population is Black
      4.4% of 2016 US Olympic swimming team is Black
      12.1% of 2016 US Olympic swimming medals won by Black swimmers
      12.5% of 2016 US Olympic swimming Gold medals won by Black swimmers

      Yes, “the first black Olympic swimmer only qualified in the year 2000.” Don’t look back, their gaining fast.

      Like

    • peterlawrencethompson says:

      Sorry; I should be more patient and refrain from making fun of other people’s opinions.

      One insuperable problem with drawing conclusions from any data about population averages to predict the performance of statistical outliers is that the argument presumes standard deviation to be invariant. Standard deviations vary hugely enough to make rubbish of your arguments and your predictions, as it has made rubbish of ALL the similar predictions which predated yours.

      The next insuperable hurdle that your argument trips over is that genetics is NOT destiny. Cultural factors are far more important than you seem to realize. Think about it; Jamaicans, drawn from a tiny population, currently dominate sprinting… but they are genetically indistinguishable from the much larger west African populations that were their great great grandparents… so where are the Nigerian sprinters?

      So while you acknowledge that “Sure you’ll see some anomalies,” you seem blissfully unaware that Olympic competition is ALL anomalies, even the competitors who come in last.

      I currently live in Jamaica and can see first hand the cultural forces which are in play for the production of elite track athletes in both men’s and women’s competition. The genetics have not changed one bit in the few generations since they were separated from their West African cousins, but the culture has, and therein lies ALL the difference.

      You write that “on average, blacks have a harder time swimming due to the aforementioned variables.” The only logical conclusion you can draw from your data, if it is indeed correct, is rather that “the average Black person has a harder time swimming due to the aforementioned variables.” Do you see the difference? Data about the average Black person has zero relevance to discussions about the physiology of Olympic athletes.

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      One insuperable problem with drawing conclusions from any data about population averages to predict the performance of statistical outliers is that the argument presumes standard deviation to be invariant. Standard deviations vary hugely enough to make rubbish of your arguments and your predictions, as it has made rubbish of ALL the similar predictions which predated yours.

      Not really. Averages for the general population would mirror that of competitive sports. You can see this from the World’s Strongest Man, powerlifting, distance running, swimming, etc. West African descended blacks are genetically better. Motivation, of course, plays a part. But without the correct physiology, one will not succeed in the big time.

      The next insuperable hurdle that your argument trips over is that genetics is NOT destiny. Cultural factors are far more important than you seem to realize. Think about it; Jamaicans, drawn from a tiny population, currently dominate sprinting… but they are genetically indistinguishable from the much larger west African populations that were their great great grandparents… so where are the Nigerian sprinters?

      Of course genetics is not destiny, but one with the right morphology and muscle fiber typing will be superior in regards to sports where explosive speed and power is key. That’s the point. It’s West African descended people who dominate in these types of competitions.

      You want to see Nigerian sprinters? Right here.

      Three different Nigerians hold the 100m sprint records for Africa, Asia and Europe

      Nigerians are, of course, West African, so this fits the theory. West Africans and their descendants dominate in these competitions due to muscle fiber typing.

      So while you acknowledge that “Sure you’ll see some anomalies,” you seem blissfully unaware that Olympic competition is ALL anomalies, even the competitors who come in last.

      Of course. They are the best of the best. However, disparities still arise due to differing morphology and other characteristics inherent to each population. They are the best of the best and the drugs they are taking make them better and take them beyond their genetic limit. Still, racial disparities arise even after this.

      I currently live in Jamaica and can see first hand the cultural forces which are in play for the production of elite track athletes in both men’s and women’s competition. The genetics have not changed one bit in the few generations since they were separated from their West African cousins, but the culture has, and therein lies ALL the difference.

      Up to 70 percent of Jamaicans may have the strong form of the ACTN3 gene.

      Since they’re descended from West African populations, this should hold true for those currently in West Africa today as well. Genetics plays the biggest part, first and foremost.

      You write that “on average, blacks have a harder time swimming due to the aforementioned variables.” The only logical conclusion you can draw from your data, if it is indeed correct, is rather that “the average Black person has a harder time swimming due to the aforementioned variables.” Do you see the difference? Data about the average Black person has zero relevance to discussions about the physiology of Olympic athletes.

      Data on the average black person shows why there are fewer black swimmers in the Olympics. The data I cited is indeed correct, and is why blacks aren’t good swimmers, on average. This is why there are fewer blacks in these competitions, due to morphology and other factors, which is also why they succeed in other events over other populations.

      Do you think there will be a sudden uptick in whites winning these commpetitions where blacks dominate due to their muscle fiber typing? You’re crazy if you believe so.

      In regards to the numbers, as I said, anomalies happen, but looking at the whole of it, blacks don’t do well in swimming and physiology and musculoskeletal differences are the main causes.

      Like

    • peterlawrencethompson says:

      You have missed the point again. Averages for the general population do NOT mirror that of competitive sports. This is because the standard deviations vary so dramatically that drawing conclusions from a simple population average is useless in predicting the performance of statistical outliers.

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Tell me the SD for athletes and the general population then.

      General population averages do matter. If this is the case, where are all of the elite white sprinters? Where are the elite black Strongmen?

      They are few and far between because the variables I mentioned previously do matter and they differ between populations.

      Like

  4. Chinedu says:

    There are a lot of dumb so-called race realists and HBDers on the Internet but you take the proverbial cake. How many blacks go out for swimming, dumbass? We should expect to see fewer blacks on the gold medal podium because few take up the sport. A 2 year old should understand that and you don’t?

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Man, thanks for the laugh.

      How many blacks go out for swimming, dumbass?

      You tell me. 70 percent can’t swim. Is it out of the realm of possibility to think that some people won’t be naturally good swimmers due to musculoskeletal differences? Crazy talk!!!!

      We should expect to see fewer blacks on the gold medal podium because few take up the sport. A 2 year old should understand that and you don’t?

      Musculoskeletal differences aren’t real? Bone density and chest width differences aren’t real? FFB differences aren’t real?

      There are numerous variables that account for this difference.

      Like

    • Chinedu says:

      Look, peabrain, black people were denied access to swimming pools and even beaches for much of this country’s history. Shove your pseudoscientific gibberish about bone density, fat and chest cavity blah blah blah. You’re actually trying to argue that you belong to a more intelligent race and you’re spouting this stupidity?

      The fact is, fat people can swim if they learn how. Babies are mostly made of fat and they can swim from instinct. Animals weighing 2 tons with massive chest cavities and massive bone density can swim.

      You talked the same nonsense about basketball and I proved you wrong. You talked the same nonsense about baseball and I proved you wrong. You said Arabs were genetically predisposed to terrorism and I proved you wrong. There isn’t a single argument you’ve tried to make on this ridiculous blog that any 10 year old couldn’t shoot down.

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Shove your pseudoscientific gibberish about bone density, fat and chest cavity

      So what I said and cited is wrong? Are you going to show me how?

      You’re actually trying to argue that you belong to a more intelligent race and you’re spouting this stupidity?

      I have an intellectual interest in HBD and things of this nature. Proving ‘superiority’ is not on my radar as that’s a retarded word to use for organisms and humans.

      Blacks have, on average, less fat-free mass, and since fat floats, this is why the have a hard time swimming. You saying this fat and that fat organism can swim doesn’t mean anything.

      You talked the same nonsense about basketball and I proved you wrong. You talked the same nonsense about baseball and I proved you wrong. You said Arabs were genetically predisposed to terrorism and I proved you wrong. There isn’t a single argument you’ve tried to make on this ridiculous blog that any 10 year old couldn’t shoot down.

      Thanks for reminding me.

      Like

  5. Josh says:

    You guys sound like a bunch of women geez… you are both correct. The data shows black people are genetically inferior swimmers, just like whites with running and jumping.

    That being said, a history of racial segregation certainly never encouraged them to become proficient swimmers. Just as a most white men shouldn’t be able to dunk, we have had years of access to basketball facilities for decades and with motivation have increased our averages…

    Overall, a fine article and you two other guys need to stop being so insecure.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      That being said, a history of racial segregation certainly never encouraged them to become proficient swimmers. Just as a most white men shouldn’t be able to dunk, we have had years of access to basketball facilities for decades and with motivation have increased our averages…

      I agree that is part of the problem, but due to musculoskeletal differences, along with average body fat and fiber typing differences, I don’t see blacks getting good representation on swimming teams.

      Like

  6. Matt says:

    Hi Josh, I’m sure you’re a lovely man. You love your mum, support your sister and treat your wife as your equal. So tell me why the guys above sounds like a bunch of women?

    White man Bob Kurland was slam dunking a basketball in the 1940s and 50s. In 1919, white man Charlie Paddock was named the fastest man alive, and as recently as 1987, a white man from Sweden held the high jump world record. In the last 50 years at least, no black American male has held a high jump world record.

    So it’s clear to see that white people could actually jump and run fast, right up until the very point black people were given access to the resources an athlete needs to compete at world level. It didn’t even need to be an equal opportunity. Just an opportunity was enough. Take Jesse Owens for example.

    In 1996 black people were genetically indisposed to golf. In 1997 ….

    It won’t be long until a black man with a small chest cavity and heavy bones wins a swimming gold. And then those attributes will be viewed as incidental inherent racial advantages. Things like access to opportunity, funding, hard work, discipline, effort, training, education, school and family support won’t be mentioned.

    And as I started with the issue of respect for women, let me end with it. Look up Simone Manuel.

    Black. Female. Swimmer. Gold

    You wish you could act like her Josh.

    Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      That whites used to do well in these sports is a non-factor. Jews used to dominate basketball too (see Jon Entine’s book Taboo), does that mean anything? Does that change the phenotype that is most conducive to success in said sport?

      So it’s clear to see that white people could actually jump and run fast, right up until the very point black people were given access to the resources an athlete needs to compete at world level.

      I agree, and when blacks were given a good opportunity, we have seen what has happened in the past 60 years since then.

      It won’t be long until a black man with a small chest cavity and heavy bones wins a swimming gold. And then those attributes will be viewed as incidental inherent racial advantages. Things like access to opportunity, funding, hard work, discipline, effort, training, education, school and family support won’t be mentioned.

      Doubtful. Did you see Robel Kiros Habte? He was only at the Games in Rio because he was extended an offer from a comittee that extends spots to countries with low Olympic representation. Horrible finish.

      And as I started with the issue of respect for women, let me end with it. Look up Simone Manuel.

      I’m aware. I watch this stuff whenever it’s on; what does it mean? Nothing. Race is correlated with muscle fiber typing; skeletal structure etc. Therefore the number of blacks that will succeed in these types of sports are few and far between.

      You seem to be a bit confused on the different average physiological differences between the races.

      Like

    • Matt says:

      Gosh, I really like some of the hypothetical situations / debates you come up with, but, it’s really hard to engage in a reasoned conversation with you because you at once agree, then disagree with, the very same evidence you used to agree with, then make a leap that actually refutes your argument, yet which you claim is in support of your argument.

      Nonetheless, I’ll try to respond to your points in turn;

      Point 1.
      That whites did well in these sports is in fact totally the factor. They did well until black people had an opportunity, which as it turned out, didn’t even need to be equal. I was not subtly implying the same must surely exist with swimming, with which, in your next point, you confirm.

      Point 2
      Great, we’re in agreement

      Point 3
      We agree with each other. Habte is an individual who was extended an invitation to compete in a competition he was embarrassingly unprepared for. Please take heed of the point I made though that made you cite the Habte example. Let’s apply what I said to Habte’s nation; if all Ethiopians were given access to the training conditions and methods that say, Michael Phelps had enjoyed, do you think Habte would be the best swimmer Ethiopia could produce?

      Point 4
      How can you dismiss the performance of the champion black swimmer Simone Manuel as of no significance? She is black. Is it that she doesn’t have a small chest cavity and heavy bones?

      Is there even a study that shows both the optimal chest cavity volume and bone mass / density required for an elite swimmer? And the chest cavity volume and bone mass / density of individual races. I would like to point out that you’ve already conceded to me in other threads that race is an economic and power construct, and nothing more.

      Which leads me to point 5.

      Point 5
      I’m not so much confused between the physiological differences between the races, more by the fact people continue to believe the physiological existence of race.

      Perhaps you could help me by;

      Listing the races.
      Listing the chemical characteristics that make those races distinct.
      Listing the biological characteristics that make those races distinct.

      (Usually I merely want chemical and biological distinctions, but since you brought it up)

      List me the skeletal and muscle fibre typing differences that make each race, under any conception of race you choose, distinct, from any other race.

      If you can do that, you’ll do what no one has to date.

      And if you’re going to cite Hardimon in reply, check out my response to your assertion that his minimalist conception of race is valid.

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      That whites did well in these sports is in fact totally the factor. They did well until black people had an opportunity, which as it turned out, didn’t even need to be equal. I was not subtly implying the same must surely exist with swimming, with which, in your next point, you confirm.

      (pg 49 of his book Rethinking Race: The Case for Deflationary Realism.)

      Yes, exactly, until blacks had the opportunity. So when they did, we saw what different types of bodies (meaning somas) could do. (Regarding race; we knew what they could do but blacks are more likely to have certain somas over whites and Asians.)

      if all Ethiopians were given access to the training conditions and methods that say, Michael Phelps had enjoyed, do you think Habte would be the best swimmer Ethiopia could produce?

      I highly doubt it. Would they then place highly in the Games or similar events? I highly doubt that as well.

      How can you dismiss the performance of the champion black swimmer Simone Manuel as of no significance? She is black. Is it that she doesn’t have a small chest cavity and heavy bones?

      I don’t disregard; I am not aware of her skeletal structure. I need to look this up. Women have more body fat than men, black men have less body fat than white men. I think that’s part of the explanation of the variance, too.

      Is there even a study that shows both the optimal chest cavity volume and bone mass / density required for an elite swimmer? And the chest cavity volume and bone mass / density of individual races.

      I think I have one. Let me check and get back to you.

      I would like to point out that you’ve already conceded to me in other threads that race is an economic and power construct, and nothing more.

      The racialist concept, according to Hardimon, is. And I’ll accept that for the sake of the argument (though I have some problems with his argument there which I will touch on soon).

      Listing the races.
      Listing the chemical characteristics that make those races distinct.
      Listing the biological characteristics that make those races distinct.

      (Usually I merely want chemical and biological distinctions, but since you brought it up)

      List me the skeletal and muscle fibre typing differences that make each race, under any conception of race you choose, distinct, from any other race.

      If you can do that, you’ll do what no one has to date.

      And if you’re going to cite Hardimon in reply, check out my response to your assertion that his minimalist conception of race is valid.

      I’ll write an article on this soon. Hardimon does say “What happens, however, if one parent belongs to R1, and the other parent belongs to R2? The minimalist concept of race does not say. Still less does it tell us what one’s race is if one of one’s grandparents belongs to R1, another to R2, another to R3, and another to R4. This is further respect in which the minimalist race concept is vague (indeterminate).

      I just tried to see how far I can push the minimalist concept, which is not very far (if one wants to speak about racial categories).

      Minimalist race speaks to races’ existence; the populationist concept of race is what you’re looking for and I will discuss that soon.

      Like

    • Matt says:

      The minimalist conception of race is a bit rubbish, but good effort trying to justify it.

      It feels like a last stand, when all other justifications for the subjugation of people who are not white, have been debunked.

      You have nailed the reason why I think race does not exist.

      You concede skilfully, that in 2018, if my grandmother is white (R1 say), my grandfather is black (R2), my mother is Eurasian (R3), and my father is of the Americas (R4), under any conception of race, there is no singular racial group that I belong to. So this means, that in one generation only, it is impossible to assign a singular race (as defined by Hardimon) to a person.

      So, we agree, that in one generation (let’s say 50 years equals one generation, which is generous), the intermingling of people means race is impossible to determine. Hardimon’s conception presumes the races he invents developed independently, without ever intermingling. Which doesn’t sound that convincing to me.

      Evidence shows it’s pretty much irrefutable that humans have never not migrated continentally, or never not mated with other groups of humans, and that homo sapiens have existed for between 200,000 and 300,000 years.

      Which means we have had at least 5,000 generations of people, i.e all people, who are not of a singular race.

      I also believe, like you do, that people from different places, look differently, so perhaps they are of a different race.

      So I repeat my ask again. List me the races, and list me the physical, biological, and chemical differences that make each race distinct from the other.

      Until you can do that, and no one has to date, there is no empirical or scientific basis for the existence of race.

      Race is a social construct, and nothing more.

      Like

    • RaceRealist says:

      Race being a social construct does not preclude that race is a biological reality.

      I will adress your points when I discuss the populationist concept of race.

      Like

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